Keeping Orcas in captivity - Is it wrong?

[Smithy]

All about focusing their cause at the top though isn't it. Take down the top player and hope that it'll have a knock-on effect all the way down. Turn people away from the likes of Sea World and maybe it'll also turn them away from zoo's, safari parks and other attractions that are less high-profile.

 

[marc]

The problem is if zoos go and sea world a lot of the good work they do ends and then some animals saved either die or become extinct.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Zoos aren't going to go in our lifetimes, and neither is the Shamu brand. I'd not be surprised to see shows eventually dissapear, but I bet the life expectancy of the whales would fall with it.

I'm hoping this will push SeaWorld to put more into the typical theme park hardware and typical zoo side of their product, selfishly.

 

[Robbie]

And Blackfish, Didn't it just get rejected from the Oscars due to its content being in the most part 'inaccurate'.

No, that's not true. It made the Academy Awards longlist and was not disqualified. It's just that the Oscar voters thought there were (at least) five better documentaries last year and put them in final nominations instead - and they were right!

 

[Darren B]

And Blackfish, Didn't it just get rejected from the Oscars due to its content being in the most part 'inaccurate'.

No, that's not true. It made the Academy Awards longlist and was not disqualified. It's just that the Oscar voters thought there were (at least) five better documentaries last year and put them in final nominations instead - and they were right!

I can't find the content at the moment but will link it when I do. A spokesperson for the ceremony commented that because the SeaWorld trainers that were featured in Blackfish have now complained that the documentary twisted a lot of what they'd said it was necessary to pull Blackfish. There were also a lot of current trainers who had complained that they were featured in the documentary wrongly, with the biggest complaint coming from a trainer that was featured with blood pouring from his face. Blackfish stated that he'd been attacked by an orca when in fact he'd slipped and banged his head on the stage. Then there was the mystery of why so many trainers came forward to attack SeaWorld, the answer; most had never worked with the orcas and just wanted a piece of the limelight or they were dismissed by SeaWorld and were extremely bitter about it. Wrap all this together and it's clear that this documentary had so many flaws to it that it just wasn't suitable for the Oscars.

Just be clear though - I'm not attacking Blackfish completely, I've seen it many times and I actually think it's a brilliant and powerful documentary. Yes, it has the flaws that I've stated, but it also makes people aware of some of the awful wrongdoings that SeaWorld have taken part in in the past. But the key word is PAST. I don't believe much of what's featured in the documentary actually happens anymore.

Going back to the whole strike at the top and work your way down theory; I don't buy that. PETA and the rest must surely realise that they have no chance of defeating SeaWorld, yet they have a real chance of promoting the awful cases of cruelty that happens across the globe. They struggle to get huge backing from the public in regards to SeaWorld because most of the public (including me) don't have a massive problem with Orcas being kept in captivity as long as they're looked after properly. Because let's face it; it may not be there natural habitat but they get treated like royalty. Elephants being chained and whipped would gain massive public backing because quite simply it's awful, shocking and disturbing to see and hear about.

You look at this photo;

And then look at this photo;

There's a HUGE difference between the quality of life between the SeaWorld Orcas and Sunder, the 14 year old Elephant who spends his day being physically tortured. PETA and the other groups are fighting the wrong battle, when there are battles out there than can be won and would be backed 100% by the public.

 

[marc]

Tbh I think they are just starting with Sea World before they move on to other places.

When parks are no longer allowed to keep whales it will cause a review on other animals.

Years ago they went after Animal Kingdom and Disney were found to be drugging the animals to keep them calm and so people could see them on the safari. Disney had to change what they were doing.

Darren you will find it so hard to find links, things keep getting removed as quick as they are posted. I've had it happen to me far too many times in this topic.

Tbh everything is now stacking up against Sea World, Blackfish started it and Sea World really have not helped themselves. They totally lied about what happened to that trainer, the video is on YouTube before it gets deleted. The whale ripped her apart after grabbing her arm not her hair as they said.

These whales are just kept to make the park money and for our entertainment, they have learnt more in the wild than in parks about them.

The only good thing is the whale in question is now out swimming more and in all pictures I've seen looks happy just swimming and showing off to people by raising his head and body. You can see the difference in him from years ago.

There is no question the trainers and staff love the whales, it's just the whole problem of keeping them and what they do to keep them.

That's horrid about the elephant, why is that being left. The elephants at Busch do not seem happy either tbh they were just standing their rocking from side to side.

 

[Darren B]

Here is why Blackfish didn't feature at the Oscars. I've bolded the part in which Blackfish doesn't meet the required standards of a documentary. This is the criteria that the ceremony requires;

"An eligible documentary film is defined as a theatrically released nonfiction motion picture dealing creatively with cultural, artistic, historical, social, scientific, economic or other subjects. It may be photographed in actual occurrence, or may employ partial reenactment, stock footage, stills, animation, stop-motion or other techniques, as long as the emphasis is on fact and not on fiction."

I personally think it's one of the best documentaries I've ever seen, if not a little outdated. If she'd have left out the fiction then a blackfish would have won the award hands down. And deservedly so. Blackfish has however achieved something extremely positive; would SeaWorld dare go back to their old methods? No. Would they ever get away with separating their young orcas from their mothers? No. Will another trainers life be lost at the hands of Tilikum? Highly unlikely. So yeah, plenty of huge plus points for Blackfish without achieving the ultimate goal.

On the Elephant story; I think most elephants are quite docile anyway, they rarely use up any energy. That will probably explain why the Busch elephants act as you've stated. Sunder is just a horrible story. Paul McCartney thought he'd freed him 2 years ago but it was revealed a week ago that he's still in captivity and still being tortured. There just wasn't enough media coverage to follow the story through and his outcome slipped the net. PETA are now involved and I hope they get some success with this one. Do you remember the story of Anne the Elephant, marc? She's was in the same situation in the UK a couple of years ago but between the tabloids and the public the battle was own and she's now living her life in a safari park.

 

[marc]

I still think though they have reached a different goal.

Yes they tried to get an oscar, that failed and that's the reason it was made.

But it got the story out there and mud sticks.

It's also gone really quiet on this raising floor.

So many seem to think that law will be passes and the breading and keeping them in captivity will be stopped. I know you do not Darren.

 

[Darren B]

It's also gone really quiet on this raising floor.

So many seem to think that law will be passes and the breading and keeping them in captivity will be stopped. I know you do not Darren.

The floor is now in place and works.

No, I don't think it'll pass. SeaWorld have to much strength behind them and far too much public backing. You've seen the attendance figures, Marc. I bet the attendance figures for the 3 parks exceeded 20 million in 2013.

I do think maybe SeaWorld could go a bit further down the educational route with their shows though, and I think a law would pass that could ensure that. I'd take a bet that SeaWorld wouldn't appeal such law. In a 30 minute show I'd love them to go with the following:-

0-5 minutes - Introduction of the orcas and their past.
5-10 minutes - Get the orcas on the slide out and give the audience a full run down of their body parts, habits, diets etc.
10-15 minutes - Make the public aware of the plights that orcas face in the wild; pollution, whaling, extinction etc.
15-20 minutes - Orca and guest interaction.
20-30 minutes - A ten minute show for entertainment and enrichment purposes with a big splash finale.

I think a show which features more than just an act for entertainment purposes would be beneficial for everyone.

 

[marc]

They tried that but people are not interested they just want to see them jump and splash etc.

They do mention a few bits in the shows. But what are they meant to say, in the wild they do this but in captivity they don't.

I know the floors there and tested but I mean are the trainers allowed back in the shows?

It's a big year for Sea World this year as it's their 50 birthday.

Will be interesting to see what happens. Attendance was down last year but the weather was also bad so it's not just down to Blackfish.

 

[Robbie]

Here is why Blackfish didn't feature at the Oscars. I've bolded the part in which Blackfish doesn't meet the required standards of a documentary. This is the criteria that the ceremony requires;

"An eligible documentary film is defined as a theatrically released nonfiction motion picture dealing creatively with cultural, artistic, historical, social, scientific, economic or other subjects. It may be photographed in actual occurrence, or may employ partial reenactment, stock footage, stills, animation, stop-motion or other techniques, as long as the emphasis is on fact and not on fiction."

I personally think it's one of the best documentaries I've ever seen, if not a little outdated. If she'd have left out the fiction then a blackfish would have won the award hands down.

It was on the longlist (which means it met Oscar criteria), but it didn't make the shortlist. It wasn't disqualified, it just seems the Academy voters (quite rightly) thought there were better documentaries made last year - possibly in part because of the doubts you raise, or there's the cynical view that Academy voters were paid off by SeaWorld. Either way, Blackfish is simply not in the same league as winning film The Act Of Killing.

 

[Darren B]

I know the floors there and tested but I mean are the trainers allowed back in the shows?

There's an upcoming court hearing to decide whether or not to allow the trainers back in the water. My guess is that the past 3 months in which they've closed the show was in order to put everything into place for the ban to be overturned. So yeah, I'd expect them to be back in the water by the summer. My understanding was that the ban was only put on the Orlando park, however, I haven't heard of any shows at any of the parks using trainers in the water; that includes the other 2 parks; Loro Parque, Marineland Antibes and Miami Seaquarium. My guess is that they're all waiting to see what Orlando does and then they'll all follow suit.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

The conspiracy talk in here about links being removed is winding me up a little. Sure its not just news sites becoming outdated?

Screen shot anything new, Marc.

 

[marc]

Sorry Joey my bad wording, they are not being removed just bloody hard to find again.

Videos are being removed off YouTube though. Sometimes you can find the trainer death video sometimes you cannot.

Cheers Darren will keep an eye out. What's rather strange is when you think about it, more trainers/zoo workers have been killed or hurt working with big cats and elephants than whales.

 

[Darren B]

^I think it's because Orca's stand out as being something out of the ordinary compared to your run of the mill zoo/aquarium animals. They're the biggest beings in captivity and there's only 50-60 being held across the globe. It's a niche thing now.

 

[Gavin]

^^ You'd have to make it proportional though. Yes, more keepers have been killed by elephants, but how many elephants are there in captivity around the world? There are thousands, so the chances number of accidents involving them is bound to be a lot higher.

 

[marc]

Yes good points by both of you, plus the other animals have killed people in the wild where the orcas have not.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Yes good points by both of you, plus the other animals have killed people in the wild where the orcas have not.

Because humans don't live in the ocean and orcas do not live on land.

This is literally the only reason.

It's way less likely for the two to EVER come into contact with one another.

Compare all aquatic animal related deaths to terrestrial animal related deaths, the difference will make aquatic life look completely harmless.

 

[marc]

Joey humans have been in the water with them in the wild and they have not been attacked. True I would not want to be in the water with them lol, but no human has been killed by a killer whale in the wild and that's fact.

If that was the case why have more humans been killed by sharks this year than in many years . I can never remember a year we have heard about more shark attacks.

These whales are very common close to many parts of the USA and Canada, plus other parts of the world.

We hear more about shark related deaths than people being killed by land animals. That's probably just news coverage though.

Dolphins and these whales have actually been known to save humans by attacking sharks.

I'm probably not getting what I mean across very well tbh.

Dont see this in a park . Would not be able to as that tanks not big enough for them to even get half that speed. I would rather spend £45 to see this than see them jump through hoops. Please remember we had a really bad and upsetting experience seeing a show at Sea World so much so we will never sit and watch another show again in that park.

http://youtu.be/aJo89fHqq0U

 

[Intricks]

There is a documentary that I need to find that may help this whole "being attacked in the wild or not" argument.

In the meantime, here is a brief synopsis of it: An Orca is seperated from its pod at a young-ish age and basically "adopts" us as its pod. This happened up in Washington/Oregon/Canada area and made some major news. I believe they named her Luca or something close to it.

Its a thought provoking doc and is horrendously sad to hear this tale, but it does bring up some similar questions to the whole human interaction bit and whether or not it is deemed safe or not on both ends.

Edit: The doc is titled The Whale and her name was Luna. Took place in Nootka Sound.