Keeping Orcas in captivity - Is it wrong?

[SaiyanHajime]

The reason sharks attack humans is because they mistake them for seals. Sharks are fish. They're not very clever. Sharks still account for a tiny percentage of animal related injuries BECAUSE humans are not aquatic. Dogs, on the flipside, are our number 1 companion - so who's the most dangerous animal in terms of number of injuries? Dogs.

Cetaceans are really smart and are way less likely to mistake us for food. However, like all smart animals, they're known for aggressive play (like cats do with birds or mice). Have you ever seen footage of members of the dolphin family, orcas included, playing with their food? Watching an orca toss a barely alive bloody seal from the water. It's horrific. This isn't a kind, gentle animal, it's an intelligent animal. And with intelligence comes pleasure in causing pain to other living things. ALL intelligent species do it, us included, some more than others - like cats.

Intelligent species also, often contradictively, have altruistic tendencies. The stories of dolphins "rescuing" people, of cats adopting baby ducks, of tigers nursing pigs, etc. It's surprisingly common, all the while the same species violently torture these creatures they rescue in other situations.

Dolphins have attacked people in the wild. People. I dunno where this idea that they haven't comes from. Humans don't typically get in the water with wild killer whales, BECAUSE they are huge dangerous predators. With most dolphins (which people do often swim wild with, though most animal specialists say we really shouldn't, they are still large predators), they are highly intelligent animals, we are too large to be considered food and they're probably aware that we are an alien species and more curious about us than anything, they are less likely to attack us in the same way they'd not attack a dog if they came across one. This isn't some mystical connection they have to humans, it's not them being nice, it's the circumstance in which they have evolved to survive dictating their behaviour.

 

[marc]

No humans don't get in the water with them , but if they arrive at the same place humans are they don't swim over and attack them.

They have to toss their food out the water to eat it. In the deaths at parks the same has happened with the trainers, they have been thrown out the water like pray but have not been eaten. The women trainer who was killed was thrown around, watch the video when it appears she was not drowned like sea world said.

The trainer that was grabbed by the arm was just being shown who was boss, had the whale wanted to kill him it would have done.

As you say they are very clever, yet we make them do silly stunts and deprive them of what they should be doing.

Yes cats and other animals do like to inflict pain, seeing our cats play with a spider before killing it shows this. But do they really know they are causing pain? We know but not sure they do.

For me this raising floor is still not right. Yes it helps if a trainer is pulled under but by then it could be too late anyway.

Dolphins have attacked people in the wild as people have jumped in with them as they think they are friendly. Probably due to all the Dolphin shows and programmes like Flipper etc. In a lot of countries it's actually illegal to swim with wild dolphins.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

How often do you honestly think orcas and humans meet in the wild?

Wild orcas feed on pretty much anything. They've been known to hunt larger whale species, such as sperm whales. They've been known to ambush land animals, such moose. And yet, you honestly think, they'd be be picky about humans? This is a genus of animals known to brutally attack and murder their own kind, lets not forget.

A fatal accident on a human in the wild hasn't happened because the situation rarely arises, not because killer whales have some intelligent magnificent magical inner appreciation for human beings. We're not special, we're just another animal to them, and in the right circumstance they'd have us for dinner (or use us as a play toy). The captive orcas are around people almost as much as their own kind, of course the chance of an incident occurring is multiplied, there's no evidence what so ever to link such attacks to their unhappiness - if anything it could be excitement!

Note there HAVE been attacks on humans with wild orcas, here's a list of known incidents!

There are few recorded cases of wild orcas threatening humans; none have been known to be fatal.[5][6]

Point Sur, seen from the north on Highway 1
In the 1910s, the Terra Nova Expedition recorded that killer whales had attempted to tip ice floes on which an expedition photographer and a sled dog team were standing.[7] In this case the whales may have mistaken the dogs' barking for seal calls and grown curious.[7]
On June 15, 1972, the hull of the 43-foot-long (13 m) wooden schooner Lucette (Lucy) was stove in by a pod of killer whales and sank approximately 200 miles west of the Galapagos Islands. The group of six people aboard escaped to an inflatable life raft and a solid-hull dinghy.[8]
On September 9, 1972,[9] a Californian surfer named Hans Kretschmer reported being bitten by a killer whale at Point Sur; most maintain that this remains the only fairly well-documented instance of a wild orca biting a human.[10][11] His wounds required 100 stitches.[11]
In August 2005, while swimming in four feet of water in Helm Bay, near Ketchikan, Alaska, a 12-year-old boy named Ellis Miller was "bumped" in the shoulder by a 25-foot transient killer whale.[10][12] The boy was not bitten or injured in any way. The bay is frequented by harbor seals, and it is possible that the whale misidentified him as prey.[12]
During the filming of the third episode of the BBC documentary Frozen Planet (2011), a group of orcas were filmed trying to "wave wash"[13] the film crew's 18-foot zodiac boat as they were filming. The crew had earlier taped the group hunting seals in the same fashion. It was not mentioned if any of the crew were hurt in the encounter.[14] The crew described the orcas as being very tolerant of the film makers' presence. Over the course of 14 days they filmed over 20 different attacks on seals, many of which the film's series producer Vanessa Berlowitz describe as training exercises for the young calves in the group.[15][16]
On February 10, 2014, a free diver in Horahora Estuary near Whangarei, New Zealand was pulled down for a duration of over 40 seconds by a killer whale that grabbed the catch bag attached to his arm. The bag, which contained crayfish and sea urchins, was attached to the diver's arm by a rope which eventually came free. He then undid his weight belt and returned to the surface with his last breath. His arm was "dead" and he could no longer swim, but his cousin was nearby and helped him float to some rocks where the feeling in his arm returned.[17][18][19]

They do not need to throw pray from the water in order to eat it - it's play, same as with the cats.

You're instilling human emotions and traits into them that they probably do not have by saying they were "showing the trainer who's boss".

"Silly stunts" is again a humanism you're putting onto them. It's enrichment, the same as playing with a ball instead of a mouse is enrichment for a pet cat.

 

[marc]

Pet cats can still go out and hunt. There is no way you can recreate what a whale does in the wild in a tank.

A pet cat does not have to do stunts to get fed or a treat, if a whale fails to do what it's meant to no extra food as we all saw in the video.

The bbc program should the whales carrying out the same as they would do when they hunt. They have probably never seen a boat before like that. But did they jump to attack? No. At no time was the boat in any danger.

From what I read a killer whale has to throw its pray to rip it apart as it cannot under water, but people see this as playing with their food. If I've read it wrong then sorry but that's how I understood it.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

The act of hunting itself is not what's important, its the awakening of something similar that is entertaining on the same level.

Look, you don't live a life doing any of the things your wild ancestors (or those currently living comparable lives), nor would you wish such a life of hardship on yourself.

You still seek out entertainment stimuli they do though. It might not be obvious, but humans as a collective enjoy what they enjoy because it stimulates the same parts of our brains whatever we did in the wild did.

I'd argue that us sitting here discussing this is no different to a whale doing tricks.

Yeah I bet they do get stressed and depressed in captivity, but no where near the hardships they experience wild. Stress is a natural response to hardship. Its not a magical fairytale world in the ocean where animals are always happy and full of joy!

 

[marc]

Thing is joey we don't know how the feel, if they are happy or not. People looking after them think they know, but you can bet when the ones that were taken from their pod were not happy. If they have long memories they will never forget it.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Do you remember being a toddler?

 

[marc]

I remember being 4, but we don't know when their memories start.

I also remember something and my mum said I was 2 when it happened, I remember it as I was in a lot of pain.

 

[rtotheizzo17]

So many seem to think that law will be passes and the breading and keeping them in captivity will be stopped. I know you do not Darren.

I really am trying to stay above this anti-captivity drivel, but figured I would link you to another fail on your propaganda.

"A California bill that sought to end killer whale shows at SeaWorld in San Diego and phase out their captivity was put on hold Tuesday, dousing an escalating fight between animal activists and supporters of the major tourist attraction.

The bill's author, Democrat Richard Bloom of Santa Monica, agreed during the bill's first hearing before the water, parks and wildlife committee to revisit his proposal after further study. As a result, AB2140 is dead for this year and the soonest lawmakers could vote on the proposal would be mid-2015."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/cali ... s-23232546

 

[marc]

Money wins as always

 

[Gavin]

I haven't bothered coming back into this topic for ages since it's just going around in circles and frankly I got bored.

However:

I really am trying to stay above this anti-captivity drivel, but figured I would link you to another fail on your propaganda.

It's quite funny that you'd use the word "propaganda" when your entire argument in this thread could be lifted directly from the Sea World public relations office.

Genuine question? Do you actually work there? You really seem to have got Sea World's apologist script down pat.

Look, you don't live a life doing any of the things your wild ancestors

You can't use a "wild ancestors" argument with animals that are, at best, only a couple of generations made captive. You can't compare by using human standards and emotions at all really, especially when we've developed to this state naturally, on our own terms, over the course of 6 million years. It's just not comparable to a species that have only been made captive since the '60s.

 

[rtotheizzo17]

Killer whales in the wild live 50-70 years, not 25-35 as SW claims.

I keep seeing this "fact", and from what I can tell its ****.

Lifespan: males typically live for about 30 years, but can live as long as 50-60 years;
females typically live about 50 years,but can live as long as 80-90 years

http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/species/mam ... rwhale.htm

There is a big difference between "typically" and "can". The fact is the Killer Whales at SeaWorld(s) have not been in captivity that long...but there are several that are getting up into their 40's-50's. Who knows how long some of them end up living with their current conditions?

^I have responded to you via PM but will publicly respond as I have nothing to hide. I have never been shy to discuss my affiliation with past and present employers, which has been just about every major theme park operator in the states except Cedar Fair. I have even met a couple CFers who visited the parks and discussed my employment in multiple threads. Also, like I mentioned in the PM, I have been openly critical of parks when my opinion felt like they should be criticized. I have no qualms, as a theme park enthusiast, of discussing all aspects of theme parks, pro and con.

I reread the thread and my guess is I really got under your skin when I made that comment about gays, as you have been on my nuts every since. There have been several posters linking SW articles yet you only seem to be after me for making those comments.

Please explain to me how what I quoted is spreading propaganda... its a link directly to the NOAA filled with scientific research that refutes most of the facts that arm chair activists use against Orcas in captivity.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Look, you don't live a life doing any of the things your wild ancestors

You can't use a "wild ancestors" argument with animals that are, at best, only a couple of generations made captive. You can't compare by using human standards and emotions at all really, especially when we've developed to this state naturally, on our own terms, over the course of 6 million years. It's just not comparable to a species that have only been made captive since the '60s.

There's no evidence humans have changed in thousands of years in terms of our brains.

More importantly, even if we have, society has changed drastically in the past 60 years. People have very different entertainment today than they did even ten years ago.

You know full well that memories don't get passed on. Its not that humans enjoy playing candy crush, its that candy crush taps into the same innate skills that we evolved to need. Same with macaws copying human language, same with orcas jumping, same with...okay it isn't easy to think of animal examples that haven't been purposefully bred for their traits, but that's besides the point.

My point is simply that arguing that orcas don't enjoy doing the tricks they do in captivity on the basis that they wouldn't do them in the wild is like saying humans cannot enjoy using the internet because it hasn't always existed.

Animals can, and do, enjoy performing tasks they wouldn't in the wild. We know this because WE HAVE FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE.

 

[marc]

What I'm saying is how do we know they enjoy doing tricks such as jumping through hoops, we don't joey.

Do half of humans enjoy going to work, or forced to do something when tired ?

Is there proof that they enjoy jumping through hoops? There are enough articles saying they do it for the food.

My point is they should not be kept in tanks to do these tricks, they are not in danger and we learn more in the wild. They are there so we can see them and see them do tricks, they are not there to be saved or for their own good.

There is really no need to shout about it, I am taking what your saying on board but I don't agree with it. Your looking at it from a human view, we like it so they must do. We don't know if they do or they don't.

Am sure they would much rather be in the sea doing what they were put on the planet to do.

 

[nealbie]

Macaws don't copy human language btw, surely you of all people know that they copy noises that they hear without knowing what it is they're copying exactly.

I actually like Joey's argument, only he's foolishly deciding to ignore the flipside of the same argument. Yes we cannot categorically say that they don't enjoy being show ponies, but we can't categorically say that they do. That would be like saying all those forced into prostitution throughout human history in order to make ends meet enjoyed themselves because they were performing an "enjoyable" recreational act.

 

[Gavin]

I reread the thread and my guess is I really got under your skin when I made that comment about gays, as you have been on my nuts every since. There have been several posters linking SW articles yet you only seem to be after me for making those comments.

Honestly, I can't even remember the comment and I'm not going to trawl back to find it. I've responded to Joey just as much as I have you since you're the two people arguing the case for captivity more than anyone else; it's as simple as that.

Please explain to me how what I quoted is spreading propaganda... its a link directly to the NOAA filled with scientific research that refutes most of the facts that arm chair activists use against Orcas in captivity.

Which link? Again, without trawling back all I can see recently is an ABC news article about the bill to ban killer whales in California. There's no argument for or against in there at all. If I've missed something, by all means link me back to it. If nothing else it just goes to show that I'm not jumping on you every time you post.

I was referring to the fact that for the most part in this discussion, you haven't seemed to offer much in the way of argument that doesn't sound like a Sea World sound bite.

There's no evidence humans have changed in thousands of years in terms of our brains.

More importantly, even if we have, society has changed drastically in the past 60 years. People have very different entertainment today than they did even ten years ago.

And? Our society has changed because we have made it change. We've made the decisions that have lead to the advancement of society and, on a personal level, we make our own decisions with regards to our own entertainment. Regardless, human society just isn't relevant to the argument.

You know full well that memories don't get passed on.

Please show me where I've even remotely hinted that that's the case. These animals are not domesticated simply because they're captive or some of them were born captive, far from it.

My point is simply that arguing that orcas don't enjoy doing the tricks they do in captivity on the basis that they wouldn't do them in the wild is like saying humans cannot enjoy using the internet because it hasn't always existed.

Come on, Joey; it's not like saying that at all. Again, we choose our own entertainment based on what's available to us. I guess orcas could be seen as doing the same, but surely it's more from necessity of having no other choice of "recreational activities" (in quotation marks as I'm not imposing human ideals onto them). I'm just not getting how you can keep comparing them to people. If I'm missing something, let me know.

They probably do enjoy, to an extent, doing the tricks and performing as it actually gives them something to do during the day. In that regard, it's absolutely the best thing for them. I've got no issues with them performing at all, but let's not pretend that it's a demonstration of natural behaviours; it's to entertain paying guests.

Yes, so it's "enriching" which is a good thing, but it's still missing the entire point of the argument, which is whether they should be there in the first place.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Macaws don't copy human language btw, surely you of all people know that they copy noises that they hear without knowing what it is they're copying exactly.

Ha, yeah, but you're missing the context. Marc was anthropomorphising, so I was in turn. The point is that no, exactly, they aren't copying speech but rather noises. They copy noises in the wild* and in captivity that natural behaviour comes out as something far more specific. In the wild, Orca's do... stuff, like jump, hunt, etc and in captivity the comparison is jumpin' fo trix.

*to an extent, but actually with most parrots mimicry is a vestigial throwback that is brought forward in captive environments as entertainment for both animal and human.

Is there proof that they enjoy jumping through hoops? There are enough articles saying they do it for the food.

In response to both Marc and Neal on this point - no, I fully agree. That isn't what I'm saying. I'm arguing this idea that "making them do silly tricks" is bad for them, nothing more. Because actually, if you take away that routine, those animals would lead very, very boring lives indeed. Like Gavin goes on to mention, it's enrichment. Would they RATHER be wild? Would they RATHER be hunting? Would thy RATHER be using a smart phone? We don't know, we never will, but what we can say for certain is that it's BETTER than them swimming round in circles all day with no enrichment at all. And if you ban orca shows, you're going to contribute to making their lives dull. Setting them free would be cruel at this stage in their lives, leaving their complex brains to rot without enrichment would also be cruel. That's all I'm saying. There's more to their tricks than human entertainment. I'd too rather be working all day than sat in a small room with nothing to do. Boredom is a deadly thing.

Please show me where I've even remotely hinted that that's the case. These animals are not domesticated simply because they're captive or some of them were born captive, far from it.

Generations aren't relevant, it's the amount said specie has changed. You implied that 2 generations of whale is vastly different to hundreds of human generations, when it's not because we haven't evolved in a biological sense. If you remove humans from the societies their last few thousand years worth of ancestors have existed in, you'd never know of their heritage. We don't carry with us that burden. A quick look at wiki tells me that in 40,000 years, we've not changed biologically. We are as wild as we were then. We're not domesticated. All the changed in society and what not were brought about by our own brains, yes. That's WHY we haven't changed. All the brain power that makes playing football or watching movies or whatever fun was there to begin with. I highly suspect orcas enjoy performing, I don't know for sure, but I do certainly think it's better than them sitting their all day not doing ****.

 

[marc]

Joey I miss understood what you meant.

Yes of course doing stunts is better for them than just swimming around. They are born with a basic instinct, and for a whale it's to swim, hunt, eat. We are depriving them of what they are on the planet for.

But I just don't think we should be keeping them anymore. Why are we keeping them?

 

[nealbie]

Yeah, by all means keep the ones already in captivity, but it is "wrong" and we shouldn't catch any more Orcas.

 

[marc]

Agree with Neal, it's what I've been saying.

Stop the breeding etc.

Just keep the ones they have, as they don't breed in the normal way anyway.