Formula 1™ Topic
- Thread starter nealbie
- Start date
JJLehto
Hyper Poster
marc said:
Welcome to the big time...land of heinously unrealistic expectations!
At least he was given 3!! Remember Piquet Jr? After the first race Flav was giving him flak and halfway into the season was already "do or die" time and that was on a crappy Renault!
Same with Kovalainen, after 2 races "his younger brother is better" and "needs to step up his game"
Well OK Flav is just a dick, but yeah...it's pretty brutal in F1! Though Massa keeps getting rides :lol:
Perez is quick for sure, but I like Di Resta and Hulk more. Someone agreed with me and suggested they picked the weakest of the 3 for Button.....
Merc have got to the track they had problems with last year, guess what? Yep they have problems, so looks like they will go well at Monaco and Canada and that will be it.
Mclaren picked Perez for his money that's all. He's only on a one year deal as are the other 2 drivers you mentioned.
Mclaren picked Perez for his money that's all. He's only on a one year deal as are the other 2 drivers you mentioned.
Smithy
Strata Poster
Di Resta wants to be careful, he deserves a big seat next year, hell he deserved one this year but if Force India stagnate as they did at the back end of last year then his stock will fall and more 'flashy' drivers with greater investment will come to the forefront.
Fancy he's very much in the Button mould, great consistent driver who'll work well with the team, but may not be as ruthless enough to lead a top team to a drivers title.
Fancy he's very much in the Button mould, great consistent driver who'll work well with the team, but may not be as ruthless enough to lead a top team to a drivers title.
JJLehto
Hyper Poster
That has been my knock on Button. Thought his title was 100% deserved, but kinda weak. And he never wowed me as a driver, ironically until later. In 2011 I think?? He had one or two drives that actually impressed me, besides that he's just too solid as ya said, no killer instinct. Always felt the same about my fav driver Kimi...
I think Rosberg has proven to be worthy of a top tier drive...maybe RBR when Webber leaves for Ferrari???
I think Rosberg has proven to be worthy of a top tier drive...maybe RBR when Webber leaves for Ferrari???
Had Rubens got the testing button got over the winter going into 2009 I think he would have been champ tbh.
Button done a good job but once Rubens got up to speed with the new aero package he was the better driver. He was winning races and button was no where to be seen.
Buttons a good driver but he really is nothing special. He's very car reliant.
Nico has been unlucky with car problems this year, but his mistakes when under pressure in q3 are getting a bit much. It was the same a lot last year as well. It's sort of funny, nico is faster than Lewis in every session then in Q3 it all goes wrong.
Button done a good job but once Rubens got up to speed with the new aero package he was the better driver. He was winning races and button was no where to be seen.
Buttons a good driver but he really is nothing special. He's very car reliant.
Nico has been unlucky with car problems this year, but his mistakes when under pressure in q3 are getting a bit much. It was the same a lot last year as well. It's sort of funny, nico is faster than Lewis in every session then in Q3 it all goes wrong.
nealbie
CF Legend
marc said:
Bollocks!
I've, quite honestly, had enough of Button bashing - and 2009 is the most misinformed case of it ever!
So, regarding the 2009 season shall we have a look at cold hard facts? Seems a sensible place to start. Opinions are all well and good, and I might add some of those in later, but let's look at what actually happened with Brawn GP...
Whilst all of the legal stuff was going on in the background, Honda/Brawn missed the first test at Jerez at the end of February, but just about turned up to the first test at Barcelona. This test was 4 days long. Jenson Button drove the car on days 1 and 3, Rubens Barrichello drove the car on days 2 and 4 (Days testing: Button 2, Barrichello 2) . At the third and final test in Jerez, Rubens Barrichello drove the car on day 1. On day 2 Jenson and Rubens shared the duty in the car - it's worth noting here that the car broke whilst Button was driving it, meaning that he only completed 12 laps to Barrichello's 62. On day 3 Button was back at the wheel on the final day of testing (Days testing: Button 3.5, Barrichello 3.5).
So, going into round 1 at Australia, not only had Brawn GP given their drivers an equal and fair share of the testing time that they had available to them, but, if anything, Barrichello had a slight advantage because he had had a trouble free build up in terms of car reliability.
What I will do next in our analysis of Jenson Button being smashed by Barrichello come the end of the 2009 season is go through the results race by race, giving their positions in relation to each other for each race, as well as where they stood in the championship come the end of each race. I will also mark the position difference between the two drivers, as well as the running competitive score between them. To make it lighter reading Jenson Button will be reduced to BUT and Rubens Barrichello to BAR.
Round 1 - Australia
Qualifying: BUT 1, BAR 2 (Button 1 place ahead - BUT 1:0 BAR)
Race: BUT 1, BAR 2 (Button 1 place ahead - BUT 1:0 BAR)
Championship: BUT 10, BAR 8 (Button 2pts ahead)
Round 2 - Malaysia
Qualifying: BUT 1, BAR 4 (Button 3 places ahead - BUT 2:0 BAR)
Race: BUT 1, BAR 5 (Button 4 places ahead - BUT 2:0 BAR)
Championship: BUT 15, BAR 10 (Button 5pts ahead)
Round 3 - China
Qualifying: BUT 5, BAR 4 (Button 1 place behind - BUT 2:1 BAR)
Race: BUT 3, BAR 4 (Button 1 place ahead - BUT 3:0 BAR)
Championship: BUT 21, BAR 15 (Button 6pts ahead)
Round 4 - Bahrain
Qualifying: BUT 4, BAR 6 (Button 2 places ahead - BUT 3:1 BAR)
Race: BUT 1, BAR 5 (Button 4 places ahead - BUT 4:0 BAR)
Championship: BUT 31, BAR 19 (Button 12pts ahead)
Round 5 - Spain
Qualifying: BUT 1, BAR 3 (Button 2 places ahead - BUT 4:1 BAR)
Race: BUT 1, BAR 2 (Button 1 place ahead - BUT 5:0 BAR)
Championship: BUT 41, BAR 27 (Button 14pts ahead)
Round 6 - Monaco
Qualifying: BUT 1, BAR 3 (Button 2 places ahead - BUT 5:1 BAR)
Race: BUT 1, BAR 2 (Button 1 place ahead - BUT 6:0 BAR)
Championship: BUT 51, BAR 35 (Button 16pts ahead)
Round 7 - Turkey
Qualifying: BUT 2, BAR 3 (Button 1 place ahead - BUT 6:1 BAR)
Race: BUT 1, BAR 19[retired] (BUT 7:0 BAR)
Championship: BUT 61, BAR 35 (Button 26pts ahead)
Round 8 - Britain
Qualifying: BUT 6, BAR 2 (Button 4 places behind - BUT 6:2 BAR)
Race: BUT 6, BAR 3 (Button 3 places behind - BUT 7:1 BAR)
Championship: BUT 64, BAR 41 (Button 23pts ahead)
Round 9 - Germany
Qualifying: BUT 3, BAR 2 (Button 1 place behind - BUT 6:3 BAR)
Race: BUT 5, BAR 6 (Button 1 place ahead - BUT 8:1 BAR)
Championship: BUT 68, BAR 44 (Button 24pts ahead)
Round 10 - Hungary
Qualifying: BUT 8, BAR 13 (Button 5 places ahead - BUT 7:3 BAR)
Race: BUT 7, BAR 11 (Button 4 places ahead - BUT 9:1 BAR)
Championship: BUT 70, BAR 44 (Button 26pts ahead)
Round 11 - Europe
Qualifying: BUT 5, BAR 3 (Button 2 places behind - BUT 7:4 BAR)
Race: BUT 7, BAR 1 (Button 6 places behind - BUT 9:2 BAR)
Championship: BUT 72, BAR 54 (Button 18pts ahead)
Round 12 - Belgium
Qualifying: BUT 14, BAR 4 (Button 10 places behind - BUT 7:5 BAR)
Race: BUT 18[retired], BAR 7 (BUT 9:3 BAR)
Championship: BUT 72, BAR 56 (Button 16pts ahead)
Round 13 - Italy
Qualifying: BUT 6, BAR 5 (Button 1 place behind - BUT 7:6 BAR)
Race: BUT 2, BAR 1 (Button 1 place behind - BUT 9:4 BAR)
Championship: BUT 80, BAR 66 (Button 14pts ahead)
Round 14 - Singapore
Qualifying: BUT 11, BAR 9 (Button 2 places behind - BUT 7:7 BAR)
Race: BUT 5, BAR 6 (Button 1 place ahead - BUT 10:4 BAR)
Championship: BUT 84, BAR 69 (Button 15pts ahead)
Round 15 - Japan
Qualifying: BUT 7, BAR 5 (Button 2 places behind - BUT 7:8 BAR)
Race: BUT 8, BAR 7 (Button 1 place behind - BUT 10:5 BAR)
Championship: BUT 85, BAR 71 (Button 14pts ahead)
Round 16 - Brazil
Qualifying: BUT 14, BAR 1 (Button 13 places behind - BUT 7:9 BAR)
Race: BUT 5, BAR 8 (Button 3 places ahead - BUT 11:5 BAR)
Championship: BUT 89, BAR 72 (Button 17pts ahead - WORLD CHAMPION)
Round 17 - Abu Dhabi
Qualifying: BUT 5, BAR 4 (Button 1 place behind - BUT 7:10 BAR)
Race: BUT 3, BAR 4 (Button 1 place ahead - BUT 12:5 BAR)
Championship: BUT 95, BAR 77 (Button 18pts ahead)
So, come the end of the season, yes Barrichello had outqualified Button 10 races to 7, but we all know that qualifying is not Jenson Button's forte. Come race day, Jenson beat Rubens 12:5 (noting that Barrichello did not at any point beat Button in a race more than twice in a row)!
Another interesting point worth examining, is that (despite common misconception), Jenson Button never held a lead bigger than 26 points and it never dropped lower than 14 points after he became 14 or more points ahead. At no point did he run away with the championship lead, he was always in a position of consistency atop the drivers table.
Yes, Barrichello fared better against him in the latter part of the season, but he never beat him consistently, let alone thrash him, so let's break that down...
Round 1 - Button 1 place ahead
Round 2 - Button 4 places ahead
Round 3 - Button 1 ahead
Round 4 - Button 4 ahead
Round 5 - Button 1 ahead
Round 6 - Button 1 ahead
Round 7 - Barrichello retired (Button won)
Round 8 - Button 3 behind
Round 9 - Button 1 ahead
Round 10 - Button 3 ahead
Round 11 - Button 6 behind
Round 12 - Button retired (Barrichello 7th)
Round 13 - Button 1 behind
Round 14 - Button 1 ahead
Round 15 - Button 1 behind
Round 16 - Button 3 ahead
Round 17 - Button 1 ahead
As you can see, they were very close all season and despite Barrichello having the upper hand in qualifying Button outdrove him in the races to get the points and the world championship. In the last 9 races of the season (1 MORE than half of 17 races) Button scored 27 points and Barrichello 33. So think very carefully before sprouting nonsense that Barrichello was cheated out of the championship and stuffed Button in the second half of the season - because he, quite simply, didn't.
Good post btw.
I agree with some of that I really do.
But over the winter button did test the old Honda with the new tyres and aero package which Rubens had said took him about 6 races to get used to. But yes they did both have equal days in the actual Brawn car. But Rubens only had them days in the car since Brazil and admitted he was rusty.
Button also admitted the pressure got to him later in the year.
I do think if Rubens had the winter testing he would have at least been closer at the start than he was.
But Rubens being Rubens did have some stupid races which he throw away points. I am not saying he was robbed, hell had it stayed Honda Bruno had the drive not Rubens, Rubens was finished in F1. Plus Rubens kept doing his gear box in leaving the start line. There were also times when Rubens got all funny with the team as he lost races due to not pushing at the right times, Germany being a good example.
I'm not saying button did not deserve 2009 as he did deserve it. Some races like brazil he was stunning. But button even admits he cannot drive round car problems and when the car was not perfect Rubens did out shine him. By the time button past cars due to his starting place Rubens was to far ahead. But when the car is good button can beat anyone on the grid.
I just think button is a good number 2 just like Rubens was at Ferrari, but when all is perfect they shine. Button will near enough always bring the car home as well and not be to hard on the car. In mixed conditions I don't think there is anyone better on the grid now. But yeah for me he's just not at the same level as the best out there, that's not me bashing Button it's just how I rate him. I don't even rate Vettel that hight due to the best car thing, as for Alonso and Kimi they are the best on the grid at the moment.
It's just the same as you not rating Lewis tbh.
I did support Brawn in 2009, loved the car and was shocked with how well Button done as I just did not think he had it in him.
The brawn was fantastic for the 1st half of the year, but I think they ended up about the 3rd maybe even 4th at the end due to little budget. Did not know they only had 3 front wing for the 1st two races and only ever built 3 cars. What they done in 2009 was amazing, yes I know Honda paid for the car etc but they still had to fit a different engine and get the car running.
I don't think I worded my post very well tbh, but that's me.
I agree with some of that I really do.
But over the winter button did test the old Honda with the new tyres and aero package which Rubens had said took him about 6 races to get used to. But yes they did both have equal days in the actual Brawn car. But Rubens only had them days in the car since Brazil and admitted he was rusty.
Button also admitted the pressure got to him later in the year.
I do think if Rubens had the winter testing he would have at least been closer at the start than he was.
But Rubens being Rubens did have some stupid races which he throw away points. I am not saying he was robbed, hell had it stayed Honda Bruno had the drive not Rubens, Rubens was finished in F1. Plus Rubens kept doing his gear box in leaving the start line. There were also times when Rubens got all funny with the team as he lost races due to not pushing at the right times, Germany being a good example.
I'm not saying button did not deserve 2009 as he did deserve it. Some races like brazil he was stunning. But button even admits he cannot drive round car problems and when the car was not perfect Rubens did out shine him. By the time button past cars due to his starting place Rubens was to far ahead. But when the car is good button can beat anyone on the grid.
I just think button is a good number 2 just like Rubens was at Ferrari, but when all is perfect they shine. Button will near enough always bring the car home as well and not be to hard on the car. In mixed conditions I don't think there is anyone better on the grid now. But yeah for me he's just not at the same level as the best out there, that's not me bashing Button it's just how I rate him. I don't even rate Vettel that hight due to the best car thing, as for Alonso and Kimi they are the best on the grid at the moment.
It's just the same as you not rating Lewis tbh.
I did support Brawn in 2009, loved the car and was shocked with how well Button done as I just did not think he had it in him.
The brawn was fantastic for the 1st half of the year, but I think they ended up about the 3rd maybe even 4th at the end due to little budget. Did not know they only had 3 front wing for the 1st two races and only ever built 3 cars. What they done in 2009 was amazing, yes I know Honda paid for the car etc but they still had to fit a different engine and get the car running.
I don't think I worded my post very well tbh, but that's me.
Smithy
Strata Poster
nealbie said:
I'm glad you did that, otherwise that post really would have been an effort to read
Fair points raised though.
marc said:
Bang on the money for me, everything you want from a second driver. Reliable, brings the car home consistently, drives toe the track/car/temperature/tyre's demands, great with the team, great with the media, great with teammates, great with development feedback.
Tbf, the majority of the current grid would make great number 2's. Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel are the only three you could picture pulling suicidal overtakes because it means just that bit more to them to win, they would never settle for sitting in behind unless they absolutely have to.
JJLehto
Hyper Poster
I like Button, he's a good driver and a good guy (unless he's being unfairly bashed in the British media which I hear is pretty insane (like naming Hami a god in 07 till he had one 9th place finish and shredded him))
Just fact is fact, he lacks that extra drive (or dickishness if you want) that you need to reach the upper echelon. I think he can't really go beyond the car, which is NOT a knock...that's normal. Just guys like Alonso and Kimi can.
And sorry but 09 was a strange year. Few of the teams were really off the pace and Brawn dominated. He never made that early form again as other teams improved and he got out paced by Rubens.
Who I also like and thought he took too much flak/was underrated. He still had the best year thus was deserving but cmon it was Schumi like...he didn't have to outduel anyone or even have a fight all year.
edit: Button did have a very good 2011 and even had some impressive drives to boot. He's better than Massa who has kept his Ferrari seat all these years just because they've not bothered to make any moves :evil:
Just fact is fact, he lacks that extra drive (or dickishness if you want) that you need to reach the upper echelon. I think he can't really go beyond the car, which is NOT a knock...that's normal. Just guys like Alonso and Kimi can.
And sorry but 09 was a strange year. Few of the teams were really off the pace and Brawn dominated. He never made that early form again as other teams improved and he got out paced by Rubens.
Who I also like and thought he took too much flak/was underrated. He still had the best year thus was deserving but cmon it was Schumi like...he didn't have to outduel anyone or even have a fight all year.
edit: Button did have a very good 2011 and even had some impressive drives to boot. He's better than Massa who has kept his Ferrari seat all these years just because they've not bothered to make any moves :evil:
JJLehto
Hyper Poster
I made a ballsy call with Di Resta winning, and Dario taking the Long Beach GP for a family win!
Paul is up to 2nd : D
But LOL Vettel 17 seconds ahead...
Perez was told to up his game, he sure as hell did. Near crashed his teammate out and held his foot to the gas even as he went all 4 on the sand! Both Lotuses really strong as well.
Epic so far
Paul is up to 2nd : D
But LOL Vettel 17 seconds ahead...
Perez was told to up his game, he sure as hell did. Near crashed his teammate out and held his foot to the gas even as he went all 4 on the sand! Both Lotuses really strong as well.
Epic so far