Cedar Point | Valravn | B&M Dive Machine

[andrus]

What I don't get is why CP wanted a dive machine. Elsewhere, their appeal is in scale. Elsewhere, their vertical plummet a gimmick. CP has bigger, it has steep, it has imposing, it has flowy. Valravn adds nothing to CP, not only because it has no selling point, but because it won't be an exciting experience for CPs guests. I don't believe it is a solid investment, I believe its misguided in a lot of ways, lacking anything to draw guests in with marketing and lacking a memorable ride experience for those who ride it. Its just another coaster, just another forgettable ride in CP's ocean of them. That's their gimmick - having the most of any proper resort park, and people will continue to come for that reason, but not for Valravn.

Exactly! I've said it several pages ago; but Valravn won't offer anything new to the CP lineup. They already got taller vertical drop coasters, why would the visitors bother with this? The ride experience (apart from the drop) will also be similar to that of a B&M wing coaster or floorless, which just happen to be the two latest installments in the park! :shock: I think adding Valravn is a daft decision both from a personal enthusiast perspective and from a business perspective.

If CP wanted something big and expensive, that truly was exciting and unique they could've bought an S&S 4D. There's currently only one in the opposite corner of the country, which could easily be broken in stats. If CP wanted something less expensive and more reliable but almost as impressive they could've gone the RMC route. Either by letting Mean Streak get the iron horse treatment, which would be the biggest hybrid coaster in the world, or by building a new topper track woodie ground up (which coud also be made the biggest in the world if they wanted). Finally; if CP desperately wanted something from B&M a flyer would probably be the best choice! CP already have loads of B&M coasters, and they're renowned for riding similar. A flyer is probably the only ride from the B&M catalouge that would separate enough from existing rides in the park in terms of marketability and ride experince.

Will Valravn get a huge rider number though? Probably yes, because of the reasons Joey stated. It's a big ride, close to the entrance and since it'll have shorter queue due to higher capacity will also get a high ridership. That doesn't stop CP visitors from rather wanting to go on TTD, Maverick and Millenium Force though. From a short business perspective I can therefore completely understand CP. But in the long run their product need to be updated with new exciting rides to keep up the interest in the park and make people wanting to do repeated visits to the park. And to do that you don't want to add coasters that rides the same year after year.

That's my two cents to the discussion!

 

[Hyde]

Cedar Point is not acting out of desperation however - last year was a good year for attendance and financials, and with prospectively low gasoline prices through the next few years, the recipe is there for cheap travel to our respective regional amusement parks.

And let us also not forget - there are only two B&M dive machines in the U.S., located well outside Cedar Point's territory. While this dive machine is nothing new to enthusiasts, it is new to regular park goers. While there are indeed other vertical drops to be found in the park, those are not the main aspects of respective attractions. (i.e. TTD is an Accelerator, Maverick is a Launched "terra" coaster, Wick Twister is an Impulse, etc.) And standing at 223 ft. in height, Valravn will be just outside the top 10 tallest roller coasters, and the 3rd tallest coaster in the park.

On the notion of competition against TTD, MF, Maverick, and others; Valravn is not meant to unseat park favorites - no single ride is ever meant to at any amusement park. Rather, the interest is in adding quantity - that is after all why many enjoy going to parks with more roller coasters than less!

Ben, you are also correct, I did misspeak. What I was more alluding to, as Joey pointed out, is that large Dive Machine layouts have been relatively constant since the creation of Sheikra - or at least haven't seen the same pace of evolution as Inverts, Stand-Ups, or Floorless.

___________________________________

On a separate note, Cedar Point has begun work to place the top track on Valravn!

[tweet]https://twitter.com/CoasterForce/status/679366001645981696[/tweet]

A rundown of how this will be achieved can be found on CP's Blog: https://www.cedarpoint.com/blog-article ... vn-Topping

First, crews will lift a massive steel column and set it into place. This column will support the turn that goes into the holding brake just before you dive 214 feet to the ground. But the turn won't be installed immediately.

Once that's set, a crane will lift the highest piece, the top of the lift hill, which is made up of two pieces of track put together, up to its height of 223 feet.

They'll bolt that piece to the existing lift hill and a crane will hold it there temporarily.

Then, another crane will lift the turn section up, set it on top of the column that was already installed, then bolt it to the tippy-top piece that was held there by the other crane.

Basic concept is, we have to build "backwards" to create support for the top of the lift, since that piece has no support below it.

 

[Hyde]

Top turn is now in place!

[tweet]https://twitter.com/CoasterForce/status/679667656438321152[/tweet]

 

[steel]

y'all are truly so negative and jaded... take a walk... it's just a roller coaster, almost everybody who rides it is gonna love it.

 

[CarolinaRider]

y'all are truly so negative and jaded... take a walk... it's just a roller coaster, almost everybody who rides it is gonna love it.

Thank you. I didn't know how to word the post, but some of you are thinking WAY too hard about this. :roll:

 

[cjbrandy]

Boys, good is the enemy of great. That is all. Merry Christmas.

 

[Snoo]

This is a coaster forum. What do you expect?

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Dear Santa, here's 2 very simple thing's I'd like for Christmas this year:

- New kids who turn up at my nerdy place for the past 10 years to stop telling me how to enjoy my hobby.
- Cedar Point to get a good ride.

Merry Christmas everyone.

 

[CarolinaRider]

Dear Santa, here's 2 very simple thing's I'd like for Christmas this year:

- New kids who turn up at my nerdy place for the past 10 years to stop telling me how to enjoy my hobby.
- Cedar Point to get a good ride.

Merry Christmas everyone.

You act like you're speaking for everyone though. Valravn may not be the best choice for a park like Cedar Point, but you act like people are just going to fall asleep halfway through first drop because it's just sooo forceless and boring. There are people who are legitimately excited about this ride. It's going to be a sizeable addition and people are going to travel to ride it along with the other 16 coasters the park has. Just about 99% of the people visiting the park don't have the mindset of "Oh my God, if this ride doesn't try to murder me in the most extreme way possible, it's going to be a flop and the park should tear it down." People are going to ride it and enjoy it because it's a giant steel coaster with two vertical drops. And the park won't care if the hundreds of jaded enthusiasts complain about it because it's not Maverick or Dragster or Millennium. It's going to be a tall, fast, smooth, and enjoyable ride and even with four other coasters at 200 feet tall in the park, it's probably going to scare the crap out of a few people. People will ride it and enjoy it. No matter how intense the coaster is, shouldn't that be every park's ultimate goal regardless of reputation?

 

[owentaylor121]

Re: Cedar Point | Valravn | B&M Dive Machine

Dear Santa, here's 2 very simple thing's I'd like for Christmas this year:

- New kids who turn up at my nerdy place for the past 10 years to stop telling me how to enjoy my hobby.
- Cedar Point to get a good ride.

Merry Christmas everyone.

Don't class me as a new kid when I've been on this site for 5 years.
Thank you.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

 

[nealbie]

In all fairness, let's be thankful that Cedar Point are building a large B&M Dive Machine as a +1 and not a small kiddy cred in their ongoing effort to keep up with Magic Mountain for the most coasters record.

Yes, some will bemoan the lack of originality and some will love it to pieces for the epic airtime on the drop. But I for one would much rather be riding drop>immelman>turn>brakerun model number 534 than another bloody roller skater.

People are different. Merry Christmas.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Re: Cedar Point | Valravn | B&M Dive Machine

No, no, no, no, no. Stop. CarolinaRider, you mocked me for being too negative and thinking too hard, so I shot that back at you, so don't now claim your issue is that I come across like I'm speaking for everyone. You clearly do have content to add - you have an opinion, you have worthwhile stuff to say, so say it. I don't have an issue with you disagreeing with me, why would I? I just cannot stand people who play that "you're thinking too hard about this" crap. Don't do it - it's rude, and you're on a roller coaster discussion forum, we discuss coasters. If my discussion is too in depth for you, that's cool! Just ignore me. Simple. You enjoy coasters your way, meanwhile, I'll write essays worth of criticism of CP's new dive machine, because I find that fun. OK? OK, good.

...I don't believe I'm speaking for everyone, sorry if it comes across that wat. Yes, I'm saying that I believe that it is a fallacy that the "public will love this", but that's MY opinion, my opinion backed up by reasoning and thought which I have taken time to explain. It's clear that your response that you haven't actually read my posts, because I'm not arguing much of what you think I am. I'm not repeating myself again right now, because I'm not in the mood, and rhisnis for fun, and I'll do what I want and I'll save y'all the essay, but what I will say in response to your ending comment - what's the point on any design if we just go around thinking "eh, its good enough." No, not good enough. Strive to be awesome, not adequate!

 

[Superbatboy]

I think the biggest question mark regarding Valravn in my mind is why at CP? CP got the only roller coaster addition for 2016 in the entire chain, yet Valravn would've made more sense at just about any other CF park.

I mean, I don't ever see a park like MIA getting a dive machine but what about Dorney, KD, WoF, or Valleyfair? Even KI or CW could've used this ride.

I'm just wondering why it seems as if Cedar Fair wants nothing to do with RMC. Their main competitor Six Flags has installed a handful of them and they've all gotten positive reviews. An iron horsed Mean Streak would've been the perfect addition at CP

 

[BigBad]

I have a couple of thoughts on why they've not yet RMCed Mean Streak.

1. Then Blue Streak is their only wood coaster. Most premier parks have a big wood coaster.
2. Six Flags paid to have RMC keep away from Cedar Fair for a while.

As much as it seems like an odd choice, Valravn looks like it should be fun. Hardly world-class or a major reason to visit, but fun. I'm wondering what else they could have done, though, aside from an RMC or a quality wood coaster. (I'd like to seen an Intamin prefab in 2018 and then RMC Mean Streak for the 150th anniversary in 2020. I won't cry if they do Mean Streak sooner, but I've heard a few people---no one credible---suggest 2020 as an idea.)

Flying coaster: Doesn't get me excited.
Eurofighter/Infinity: Maybe not after The Smiler, though I really like this idea
Mega Lite: They avoid Intamin, it seems, and aren't mega lites more for parks that can't afford to have a hyper and a giga and a strata?
4D: GateKeeper already has the wing design.

If they're not going to work with RMC and they don't want to build a wood coaster in anticipation of making Mean Streak into a hybrid, then what else would they do (not rhetorical)? They have most of the other types of big coasters!

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Re: Cedar Point | Valravn | B&M Dive Machine

Re "what else could they have gotten" ... well, anything.

Why not another invert? Why not another mega, or giga? Why not another launching coaster, this time from b&m? Why not another sit down?

The "they've already got that" argument only applies when the experiences or key selling point isn't different. If they got a Nemesis clone, just for arguments sake, it would be more different to Raptor than Valravn is in experience to Gatekeeper, without the bells and whistles... My issue with Valravn being boring is that it is conceptually and physically so similar to other park experiences, where other ride types that they already have can be very different coaster to coaster.

They could have got anything in B&M's lineup, the only thing that I don't think would have been a better idea is a mega...

 

[GuyWithAStick]

^I agree 100%.

For example, SFNE has 2 boomerangs(and an SLC if you count that). SFGAm almost got 2 standups(well, for a year, at least. And who knows what could've happened to Chang if it ended up at GAm?). Universal Orlando has almost the same dark ride with Spiderman and Transformers(yes, one's at IOA, but they're the same company on the same property). Europa Park has 2 water coasters and 2 powered coasters. Heck, even racing coasters count. Yes, it's another gimmick to race another train, but the bottom line is that there are 2 of(almost) the same ride right next to each other! If any park can get away with cloning/getting the same model of a ride of their own, why can't Cedar Point?

 

[BigBad]

But does anyone have two B&M inverts? Or two hypers? Or even a floorless and sit-down inverting B&M? I wouldn't object to something like Kumba, but that doesn't seem realistic.

 

[GuyWithAStick]

^IOA has Dragon Challenge. 2 completely different B&M inverts. Your argument could be stronger saying they were meant to be together, but they don't duel anymore. They might as well close 1 side to save maintenance costs. They're 2 different coasters now.

For some more evidence of parks liking to redo itself, SFGAdv has Batman, Bizzaro, and even Green Lantern are all B&M Multiloopers. You can even argue that SFGAdv has El Toro and Nirto, both big coasters with airtime hills and intense turns(not as much on Nitro, though). Both Canada's Wonderland and Carowinds have B&M Hypers(by classification). Wiener Prater has 4 spinning coasters, and 2 wild mice. And Cedar Point here is about to have 2 B&M floorless coasters. The only reason they're all different is their marketing point. SFNE's boomerangs, one's inverted, one's not. For Spiderman and Transformers, one's themed to Marvel and has better screen-set interaction, the other to an action franchise with cool effects.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Re: Cedar Point | Valravn | B&M Dive Machine

Yeah, CW and Carowinds are the real example setters here. When they announced that, I criticised it, but they seem successful and after riding I'd say are different enough in experience, especially Fury. My concern with those is where does that leave Behemoth and Intimidator? I'm still a bit, well guests see Leviathanas a better Behemoth, surely? So why bother with Behemoth?

But, if it was two of the same that look really different in layout and feel really different, I'd have no qualms... But no one really has tried it. Why? Well, it's a bullpoo game of marketable stats isn't it. They, like a lot parks, think that unless they can boast some stat no one cares. In reality, a quality ride would spread through the grapevine and keep people coming for decades. A quality marketing campaign with some creativity will get people coming to the park regardless of content. Again I point fingers to Smiler, who's campaign uttered no stats or impressive worlds firsts, in spite of the ride having them.

 

[CarolinaRider]

I think you guys have neglected that most major amusement parks have two or more wooden coasters.