GuyWithAStick
Captain Basic
I love how the crane looks like its own ride. I can't wait to see a picture of that when finished; Valravn will fill the gap between the front and back of CP.
Cedar Point | Valravn | B&M Dive Machine
- Thread starter Hyde
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Martyn B
CF Legend
I think this is the first large Dive Machine to be built in a park where it will not be the tallest coaster... as much as I love DM'S, it seems to be an odd choice/time for them to get one, when they already have 3 coasters with vertical drops (one being substantially taller).
Besides tthat, it looks nice, but why do they still insist of having the MCBR after one element? Surely no park will dispatch trains quick enough to warrant that...
Besides tthat, it looks nice, but why do they still insist of having the MCBR after one element? Surely no park will dispatch trains quick enough to warrant that...
CarolinaRider
Mega Poster
I think the real gimmick of the dive coaster the holding brake. The coaster may seem redundant at first glance but it's really going to be different than anything the park already has.
^^ In many ways, the interest of the MCBR could simply be a speed check, rather than ability to dispatch quicker.
On the notion that Cedar Point already has 3 vertical/beyond vertical (not to mention MF's 80 degree drop) - the previous coasters' main attributes were not the vertical drop, but launches, inversions, etc. There are also already 4 other roller coasters that feature floorless trains at the park - but the floorless aspect of Valravn in turn is not the main focal point.
It turns out when you have 16+ roller coasters, it's possible to have overlap on elements and features. :razz:
On the notion that Cedar Point already has 3 vertical/beyond vertical (not to mention MF's 80 degree drop) - the previous coasters' main attributes were not the vertical drop, but launches, inversions, etc. There are also already 4 other roller coasters that feature floorless trains at the park - but the floorless aspect of Valravn in turn is not the main focal point.
It turns out when you have 16+ roller coasters, it's possible to have overlap on elements and features. :razz:
Superbatboy
Roller Poster
^CP could've and should've gotten a flyer, that would've been a truly unique experience to the park. I know the CP apologists will argue Valravn breaks all these records yadda yadda, but the ride is redundant in so many ways.
^ Yet to my point - Raptor was advertised as a roller coaster that emulates flight, and Gatekeeper is a Wing Rider - so in a way, a B&M Flyer would have overlap to features of other rides.
I've thought longer about how a B&M Flyer would play out at Cedar Point. I agree now more so that a Flyer would be a great pick, thanks in part to the new designs we have seen with Starry Sky Ripper and Flying Dinosaur. Up until that point, Tatsu was the only earnestly good Flyer, due in large part to its location on top of SFMM.
But hey, what's the tallest drop on a B&M Flyer, 124 ft.? Seems like a good height mark Cedar Point could beat in true Cedar Fair tallest, fastest fashion. :razz:
I've thought longer about how a B&M Flyer would play out at Cedar Point. I agree now more so that a Flyer would be a great pick, thanks in part to the new designs we have seen with Starry Sky Ripper and Flying Dinosaur. Up until that point, Tatsu was the only earnestly good Flyer, due in large part to its location on top of SFMM.
But hey, what's the tallest drop on a B&M Flyer, 124 ft.? Seems like a good height mark Cedar Point could beat in true Cedar Fair tallest, fastest fashion. :razz:
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
I think a divr machine is a really weird choice for any park today. They're so expensive and don't... Do anything.
Also, has Cedar Point lost their mind when it comes to naming rides? Seriously?
Also, has Cedar Point lost their mind when it comes to naming rides? Seriously?
spicy
Giga Poster
I think it's just we have seen it all before now. This was already done 10 years ago with Skeikra.
Ok Valravn's layout does look better, but it's not the Oblivion - Sheikra improvement on Dive Machine layout.
It's just not as much as an improvement in terms of the layout that you normally expect to see from Cedar Point imo.
Ok Valravn's layout does look better, but it's not the Oblivion - Sheikra improvement on Dive Machine layout.
It's just not as much as an improvement in terms of the layout that you normally expect to see from Cedar Point imo.
bob_3_
Giga Poster
This is due to how long the top corner and holding brake takes. It's actually a considerable amount of time. The time between leaving the main lift and hitting the MCBR is quite a considerable amount of time and equal to what a usual coaster would take to complete it's first half.
You have to consider the top corner, holding break and following freefall as a non-stop section of track (ignore the brakes before holding chain, thats just taking advantage of the low speed to allow an additional stopping point in the case of an emergency or breakdown).
Hope that makes sense =/ kinda learnt this from working on a dive coaster on NL2.
cjbrandy
Hyper Poster
Joey said:
Are you refering to all dive machines or just the "large" models with the bigger track? I agree with you here if its just the large ones but I think the mini ones like Oblivion 2 and Baron are great choices, firstly they are cheaper, they can be themed well, they have a signature moment for the park to market and finally, they tend to have a smaller foot print than most loopers, wing coasters etc which are often more 'spread out'.
Baron 1898 actually cost $19 million - a fairly large investment for a ride of its length and size. Krake at Heide cost $13 million - less theming, but still a sizable investment, especially compared to the $10-12 million RMC charges for Outlaw Run, Wildfire, etc.
But to your point, a big pro of Valravn is footprint - the roller coaster is fairly compact, and allows for new pathway to be laid that will open the Blue Streak plaza quite nicely.
But to your point, a big pro of Valravn is footprint - the roller coaster is fairly compact, and allows for new pathway to be laid that will open the Blue Streak plaza quite nicely.
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
Re: Cedar Point | Valravn | B&M Dive Machine
I mean all dive machines, even the minis.
There's a rumour that Baron only exists because someone screwed up and signed a deal without consulting others and lost their job over it, though I have no idea how true that is.
From the parks perspective, I see no logical reason to get one over a Eurofighter. Actually, even from my selfish perspective, the choice is a boring ride or a painful one, because neither really have anything to them other than those ...Qualities.
Look, the problem with dive machines is that they are extremely forceless... I have no idea why, but their drops "don't do anything". Griffon is the worst one I've done, I think Sheikra is probably the best from a pure ride perspective, though Oblivion is my favourite because branding and nostalgia. How can two coasters so similar as the Busch dive machines be SO different? Who looked at Sheikra and though "yeah let's make the next one less intense".
The reason Sheikra is the best is because it has weird forces on the inversions, forces unique to that ride, similar to what the wing coasters have, but without the roughness. Griffon and Krake lack those forces, because B&M have some hatred for anything fun... Until they made Fury apparently. But Griffon's drop may well be the most boring drop on any major coaster. Its so lacking in force that Darkastle emulates the drop sensation with more success. For a ride all about a 200ft drop, that's crap.
I have no hope for a Cedar Point dive machine because the park hardly has a good history of making interesting sensations on their coasters. Most of the park's lineup is forgettable, and I personally have a similar feeling towards MF's drop in terms of it just lacking sensation.
There are so many coasters that can go vertical these days - I think the criticism that Cedar Point already has several vertical coasters is really valid. The only thing a dive machine is capable of doing well is dropping, and they even manage to do that poorly sometimes, so what is the point of this ride? Its SO Cedar Point in terms of being just another big coaster for the sake of it. Its a shame that the park who brought us Maverick has forgotten how to make something interesting and reverted back to big, boring rides.
I mean all dive machines, even the minis.
There's a rumour that Baron only exists because someone screwed up and signed a deal without consulting others and lost their job over it, though I have no idea how true that is.
From the parks perspective, I see no logical reason to get one over a Eurofighter. Actually, even from my selfish perspective, the choice is a boring ride or a painful one, because neither really have anything to them other than those ...Qualities.
Look, the problem with dive machines is that they are extremely forceless... I have no idea why, but their drops "don't do anything". Griffon is the worst one I've done, I think Sheikra is probably the best from a pure ride perspective, though Oblivion is my favourite because branding and nostalgia. How can two coasters so similar as the Busch dive machines be SO different? Who looked at Sheikra and though "yeah let's make the next one less intense".
The reason Sheikra is the best is because it has weird forces on the inversions, forces unique to that ride, similar to what the wing coasters have, but without the roughness. Griffon and Krake lack those forces, because B&M have some hatred for anything fun... Until they made Fury apparently. But Griffon's drop may well be the most boring drop on any major coaster. Its so lacking in force that Darkastle emulates the drop sensation with more success. For a ride all about a 200ft drop, that's crap.
I have no hope for a Cedar Point dive machine because the park hardly has a good history of making interesting sensations on their coasters. Most of the park's lineup is forgettable, and I personally have a similar feeling towards MF's drop in terms of it just lacking sensation.
There are so many coasters that can go vertical these days - I think the criticism that Cedar Point already has several vertical coasters is really valid. The only thing a dive machine is capable of doing well is dropping, and they even manage to do that poorly sometimes, so what is the point of this ride? Its SO Cedar Point in terms of being just another big coaster for the sake of it. Its a shame that the park who brought us Maverick has forgotten how to make something interesting and reverted back to big, boring rides.
^Boring is subjective. Just because you as an enthusiast aren't impressed by a vertical drop, doesn't mean the big bad General Public that keeps the industry alive aren't as well. Look at Baron, it's the lowest Dive Coaster of them all, there's a Eurofighter within reasonable distance at Duinrell, but people are loving it! This supposed screw-up (let me just stress that that rumour has 0% chance of being true) may just turn out to be the most successful expansion to the park in recent history! Call it 'borring' or 'forceless' as much as you like, you can't deny that it did exactly what it did exactly what it was supposed to do for the park. Same counts for Gatekeeper, and the same will count for Valravn as well.
owentaylor121
Giga Poster
Re: Cedar Point | Valravn | B&M Dive Machine
You've basically just thrown in a load of your opinions and tried to make them sound like facts. To say Cedar Points line up is forgettable is just ridiculous.
Yes this ride might not be groundbreaking, but will be perfect for the park because it Will get guests through the gate.
And another thing, the fact that you have just generalised all dive machines as forceless is crazy, Oblivion has such a powerful drop and pull up, Oblivion v2 is meant to be really good and same goes for Krake too. Then to say Euro fighters are rough is again another stupid statement. Many of the Euro fighters are actually known for being fairly smooth, it's just the more famous ones like Saw, Speed, Typhoon what are known for being rough.
I think this has to be the most stupid post of the year.Joey said:
You've basically just thrown in a load of your opinions and tried to make them sound like facts. To say Cedar Points line up is forgettable is just ridiculous.
Yes this ride might not be groundbreaking, but will be perfect for the park because it Will get guests through the gate.
And another thing, the fact that you have just generalised all dive machines as forceless is crazy, Oblivion has such a powerful drop and pull up, Oblivion v2 is meant to be really good and same goes for Krake too. Then to say Euro fighters are rough is again another stupid statement. Many of the Euro fighters are actually known for being fairly smooth, it's just the more famous ones like Saw, Speed, Typhoon what are known for being rough.
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
Re: Cedar Point | Valravn | B&M Dive Machine
Alright, calm down, no need to be rude.
I really hate this idea that our opinions as enthusiasts area so vastly different from the masses that they are invalid. I just don't think it's true. I used to, and then I realised that what someone asks for or consciously wants is not the same as what someone likes. And this is a huge problem facing parks, because as they desperately try to build and market attractions that do all the stuff their audience asked for, they loose sight of something more important... Making it good.
You've both had a go at me for stating opinion as fact and whilst "boring" is quite a subjective term I'll admit, I guess what I really mean is "tame" or... I dunno, perfect? And that's not opinion, that is fact. B&M, as a general rule, make tame rides compared like for like to other manufacturers. There's no denying that B&Ms mega coasters are tame compared to Intaride's, is there now? (With the exception of Fury, since we're apparently playing the "find the exception" game.)
I honestly think most guests, given the choice of say... Krake or Saw, would prefer Saw. I believe that guests mistake roughness for intensity, because actually, when I talk about a ride being "exciting" that could mean any number of things, but I'm usually trying to convey that it is wild, dramatic, lively... All things B&Ms are not. And despite not liking Saw one tiny little bit, despite preferring Krake, I would say Saw is more exciting than Krake, because it is snappy and... yeah, lively, I guess. So guests misunderstanding that sensation makes sense to me.
Cedar Point is weird because honestly, I think they could put anything in and people would lap it up. The park has established itself as a destination with a bunch of big coasters that all sound great on paper. And this is where I'd agree that they do what they're designed to do, get people through the gates and spending money. But would, say, something like Karnan have done that any less then a dive machine? Its probably more a capacity thing with someone like Cedar Point, to be honest, but with Krake at Heide I'm clueless, because we all know full well that Merlin could not give a rats arse about capacity.
I believe that better rides are identified by guests given the chance... I'm not familiar enough with Cedar Point to know, but I certainly heard from staff and regular visitors that Gatekeeper wasn't being reridden, and I can tell you that is certainly the case with Swarm. No one excitedly wants to go back on these things, because they're just not very good. They're not favourites. They're not special. They're boring. The GP might not know what they want, but they know a good ride when they get off it.
Oblivion's drop does seem intense I'll agree, but the other 3 I've done are not. Griffon is the largest aaaand the least intense. Of the Eurofighters I've ridden, southends, Saw, Mystery Mine and Novgorod, they were all rough, Saw being the worst with Mystery a close second. But all the Euros have intense drops! Of all the dive machines and eurofighters I've done, I'd most like to ride Novgorod right now. So there's my "for context" breakdown.
Let's not pretend this thing at CP will be good, because frankly its embarrassing that they're getting one of these. After visiting Magic Mountain it really puts CP into perspective - almost everything at MM is very good with several outstanding rides. It's a shame Six Flags can't get their operations together and some decent staff, because that's one thing I'll applaud CP for. Minus the rain policy, that's a really unfunny joke.
Alright, calm down, no need to be rude.
I really hate this idea that our opinions as enthusiasts area so vastly different from the masses that they are invalid. I just don't think it's true. I used to, and then I realised that what someone asks for or consciously wants is not the same as what someone likes. And this is a huge problem facing parks, because as they desperately try to build and market attractions that do all the stuff their audience asked for, they loose sight of something more important... Making it good.
You've both had a go at me for stating opinion as fact and whilst "boring" is quite a subjective term I'll admit, I guess what I really mean is "tame" or... I dunno, perfect? And that's not opinion, that is fact. B&M, as a general rule, make tame rides compared like for like to other manufacturers. There's no denying that B&Ms mega coasters are tame compared to Intaride's, is there now? (With the exception of Fury, since we're apparently playing the "find the exception" game.)
I honestly think most guests, given the choice of say... Krake or Saw, would prefer Saw. I believe that guests mistake roughness for intensity, because actually, when I talk about a ride being "exciting" that could mean any number of things, but I'm usually trying to convey that it is wild, dramatic, lively... All things B&Ms are not. And despite not liking Saw one tiny little bit, despite preferring Krake, I would say Saw is more exciting than Krake, because it is snappy and... yeah, lively, I guess. So guests misunderstanding that sensation makes sense to me.
Cedar Point is weird because honestly, I think they could put anything in and people would lap it up. The park has established itself as a destination with a bunch of big coasters that all sound great on paper. And this is where I'd agree that they do what they're designed to do, get people through the gates and spending money. But would, say, something like Karnan have done that any less then a dive machine? Its probably more a capacity thing with someone like Cedar Point, to be honest, but with Krake at Heide I'm clueless, because we all know full well that Merlin could not give a rats arse about capacity.
I believe that better rides are identified by guests given the chance... I'm not familiar enough with Cedar Point to know, but I certainly heard from staff and regular visitors that Gatekeeper wasn't being reridden, and I can tell you that is certainly the case with Swarm. No one excitedly wants to go back on these things, because they're just not very good. They're not favourites. They're not special. They're boring. The GP might not know what they want, but they know a good ride when they get off it.
Oblivion's drop does seem intense I'll agree, but the other 3 I've done are not. Griffon is the largest aaaand the least intense. Of the Eurofighters I've ridden, southends, Saw, Mystery Mine and Novgorod, they were all rough, Saw being the worst with Mystery a close second. But all the Euros have intense drops! Of all the dive machines and eurofighters I've done, I'd most like to ride Novgorod right now. So there's my "for context" breakdown.
Let's not pretend this thing at CP will be good, because frankly its embarrassing that they're getting one of these. After visiting Magic Mountain it really puts CP into perspective - almost everything at MM is very good with several outstanding rides. It's a shame Six Flags can't get their operations together and some decent staff, because that's one thing I'll applaud CP for. Minus the rain policy, that's a really unfunny joke.
djreplay26
Roller Poster
No offence but some of you come across as roller coaster snobs, yes they could've got a flyer or whatever but I wouldn't say it's a poor choice by any means. The drop is in itself is bigger than any coaster in the UK, and hurtling towards the floor at 75mph from over 200ft can't be described as tame surely.
GuyWithAStick
Captain Basic
^The Big One is over 200 feet, goes 75 mph, and look at how it's received.
But I do think it was a pretty good choice for the park. Sure, it's not the first coaster at CP with a drop around 90*, but the other coasters, like stated before, have different selling points. Dragster's is the height and launch, Millennium is it's height, speed, and length, Maverick is for it's intensity and wild experience, and Wicked Twister is for it's multiple launches. This ride has a selling point for the drop and holding brake. Will enthusiasts love it? Probably not. Will the GP like it? Most likely yes. It'll be a people eater. 24 people per train. And assuming they're running 3 trains, then it'll have a huge capacity. Who cares if you'll like it? Ride it once, then don't bother with it again. Ride other things. It's a good investment for the park, and will draw tons of people in.
But I do think it was a pretty good choice for the park. Sure, it's not the first coaster at CP with a drop around 90*, but the other coasters, like stated before, have different selling points. Dragster's is the height and launch, Millennium is it's height, speed, and length, Maverick is for it's intensity and wild experience, and Wicked Twister is for it's multiple launches. This ride has a selling point for the drop and holding brake. Will enthusiasts love it? Probably not. Will the GP like it? Most likely yes. It'll be a people eater. 24 people per train. And assuming they're running 3 trains, then it'll have a huge capacity. Who cares if you'll like it? Ride it once, then don't bother with it again. Ride other things. It's a good investment for the park, and will draw tons of people in.
Snoo
The Legend
djreplay26 said:
This is an enthusiast website, do you expect the same thoughts and feelings that the general public have?
Having gone to CP my whole life and having gone around the nation as well, I tend to agree with Joey's sentiments toward the ride choice as well as CP in general. I haven't voiced them much in this thread and while I do love me some Dive Machines, CP fans have been DYING for another Maverick to be built. Lets be honest, the enthusiboner for MF makes most sane folks sick and past TTD, what more does CP have? EVERYTHING else is incredibly forgettable, especially compared to the other versions of the same coaster type out there. The only coasters with a line on an average day are TTD, Maverick, and MF.. and two of those do not have capacity issues. RMC has been floated since Outlaw Run and with more and more being built and the lineup for CP being more and more mediocre, this type of outcry will only be louder. This same talk came around when Gatekeeper was announced. Yeah.. its cool and a 'lock' ride, but really is it any good? Big and better died with TTD and it should have stayed that way. I really thought Maverick would have been a renaissance for CP's mindset, but I've been letdown for nearly a decade.
At the end of the day, CP will do what CP wants to do and being upset about 'safe' choices is a damn near an enthusiast right. Yeah, other places would DIE for a ride like this, but when your CP, you don't need to die for it. You don't need to be safe. You need to be unique, exciting, and awesome.. just like Maverick. There IS a reason the biggest thread in the history of Coasterforce was for Mavericks building.
cjbrandy
Hyper Poster
This coaster is like Cedar Point went for a cheeky Nandos and some bants with the lads (the lads here being Six Flags parks). The lads are like "**** it, we're going to be different from usual and have some fun!" and they all order the special of the day, some weird af exotic food with ingredients they've never heard of and they love it (imagine these foods being creative RMC coasters) whilst Cedar Point is like "woaaah guys that's a bit much for me, I'm just going to play it safe and get what I normally do, the chicken burger cooked plain with no sauce or salad and a glass of water." (the burger is Valravn and the water symbolises how generic it is with zero theming beyond name). Sure, the plain burger would taste and be pleasent enough, but the lad's exotic food is so much more interesting and exciting. A park like Cedar Point needs to get creative and take some risks!
Crazycoaster
Giga Poster
I think any dive coaster that doesn't dive into the ground/theming misses the point of a dive coaster completely. It's in the name of the coaster. And that's the problem here. Val has an interesting enough layout coaster wise, it's just not executed well. Much like Griffon, it's lacking in any decent theme, and has even less interaction with the things around it. So it will fall short of being a good ride.
The thing that makes Oblivion so good is hurtling towards the ground into a hole that never looks big enough when you're headed for it. That split second where it looks like you're going to hit the ground. That's what a vertical drop is for. Cedar Point have made the mistake of thinking that the element is enough on it's own, but it's not. Even Sheikra's first drop is underwhelming compared to oblivion's. On Sheikra, Griffon, and now this, you're pulling up before you get anywhere close to the ground and missing that vital "oh sh-" moment.
The thing that makes Oblivion so good is hurtling towards the ground into a hole that never looks big enough when you're headed for it. That split second where it looks like you're going to hit the ground. That's what a vertical drop is for. Cedar Point have made the mistake of thinking that the element is enough on it's own, but it's not. Even Sheikra's first drop is underwhelming compared to oblivion's. On Sheikra, Griffon, and now this, you're pulling up before you get anywhere close to the ground and missing that vital "oh sh-" moment.