WTF BPB?

[Gavin]

I've very much been enjoying the "HOW DARE THEY CLOSE RIDES I NEVER GO ON!!!!!" outrage on the usual Facebook groups.

 

[Munchy Road Hippopotamus]

Thinking of going to BPB on the 15th with my 2 boys, eldest has an Access card and as per normal you can have someone accompany you on the rides, if you want more than 1 person though you have to pay an extra £5 which seems a bit ****ty. What am I going to do, leave my 8 year old to fend for himself and then leave my other kid on his own whilst me and the youngest queue in the normal queue. I know it only £5 and I will obvioulsy pay it I just think it's a bit rubbish

 

[bob_3_]

Thinking of going to BPB on the 15th with my 2 boys, eldest has an Access card and as per normal you can have someone accompany you on the rides, if you want more than 1 person though you have to pay an extra £5 which seems a bit ****ty. What am I going to do, leave my 8 year old to fend for himself and then leave my other kid on his own whilst me and the youngest queue in the normal queue. I know it only £5 and I will obvioulsy pay it I just think it's a bit rubbish

Is it bad that I think that's pretty reasonable?

 

[Bowser]

Is it bad that I think that's pretty reasonable?

It's a tough one. On the one hand the circumstances as per above will be very common where an adult can't possibly leave a child unattended. On the other hand you have a situation like at the Merlin parks where people take advantage of the system and the quantity then makes it unviable for those who really need it so you could argue any sort of deterrent is beneficial.

For those taking advantage is £5 a deterrent for a "free fastpass'? Likely not so it does somewhat amount to a unethical cash grab.

 

[Fleetwood_Mack]

I have mixed feelings about stuff like this. On the surface I'd be happy to shell out the £5 per person myself. It'd be really nice to go to BPB as part of a group of people and actually all be able to ride stuff together. I went with a small group in 2018 and we spent most of the day splintering apart because only one person was allowed to ride with me using the RAP.

Trouble is, we know what happens in these situations, it starts out as £5 one year then slowly creeps up, and up, and up! I also worry that this might set a precedent that it's okay to up-charge people with disabilities for something that able bodied visitors already get included in their ticket, which is a day out with their friends or family where they get to actually spend the day with them. So... it also makes me feel a bit icky.

 

[Munchy Road Hippopotamus]

Is it bad that I think that's pretty reasonable?

You're entitled to your opinion but why the charge? No one else charges and it's not like I have any option but for 3 of us to use the system. It just seems odd (and possibly illegal) to charge someone additionally for someone in their party having a disability. I’m unsure as to why you feel that it is reasonable to charge someone in these circumstances?

I completely understand that these systems are abused by some people and believe me when I tell you that I’d rather not have to use them. However the access card requires you to prove any disability that you or a member of your party has so I’m uncertain how I could be abusing it.

As I say it’s £5 and I have little choice but to pay it however I feel that it is unwarranted and borderline discriminatory.

 

[Nicky Borrill]

It's a tough one. On the one hand the circumstances as per above will be very common where an adult can't possibly leave a child unattended. On the other hand you have a situation like at the Merlin parks where people take advantage of the system and the quantity then makes it unviable for those who really need it so you could argue any sort of deterrent is beneficial.

For those taking advantage is £5 a deterrent for a "free fastpass'? Likely not so it does somewhat amount to a unethical cash grab.

Is it bad that I think that's pretty reasonable?

I get what you're saying, and I generally agree, it should be harder for people to abuse.

But at Merlin parks, those abusing it the worst, have multiple RAPs so that they can alternate between them and avoid time outs. So at BPB, I imagine, the abusers will just register for multiple, to avoid the charge. This will only hurt genuine folks who really need it, people who wouldn't dream of registering every slightly ADHD child (those actually perfectly capable of queuing like normal) just to get extra free fast passes.

I have mixed feelings about stuff like this. On the surface I'd be happy to shell out the £5 per person myself. It'd be really nice to go to BPB as part of a group of people and actually all be able to ride stuff together. I went with a small group in 2018 and we spent most of the day splintering apart because only one person was allowed to ride with me using the RAP.

Trouble is, we know what happens in these situations, it starts out as £5 one year then slowly creeps up, and up, and up! I also worry that this might set a precedent that it's okay to up-charge people with disabilities for something that able bodied visitors already get included in their ticket, which is a day out with their friends or family where they get to actually spend the day with them. So... it also makes me feel a bit icky.

It could be argued that everybody else has to pay to skip the main queue line. You still get one friend / family member to ride with, why should it be any more? Like I said above, it's a shame, this will most likely affect those that actually need the passes, and don't abuse them. But it's a small price to pay if it finally eases the access queues to levels actually manageable by those that need it.

Hopefully Merlin are watching closely, because it's them that really have an issue, I've not noticed it being anywhere near as bad at BPB. (At least not to the degree where people, who are genuinely unable to stand for long times, can't wait in RAP queues sometimes, due to their length!)

*To clarify, as always with this topic, my issue is not, and never will be, with those who really need the service. My issue is with those, who I know personally, or those who have been quick to show off to me when I've met them, who do not need it, but abuse it as a free fast pass. They're ruining it for people who really do need it. And at Alton Towers specifically, the long term and systematic abuse of RAP, amongst regulars, is far more widespread than people might think.

 

[Fleetwood_Mack]

I get what you're saying, and I generally agree, it should be harder for people to abuse.

But at Merlin parks, those abusing it the worst, have multiple RAPs so that they can alternate between them and avoid time outs. So at BPB, I imagine, the abusers will just register for multiple, to avoid the charge. This will only hurt genuine folks who really need it, people who wouldn't dream of registering every slightly ADHD child (those actually perfectly capable of queuing like normal) just to get extra free fast passes.



It could be argued that everybody else has to pay to skip the main queue line. You still get one friend / family member to ride with, why should it be any more? Like I said above, it's a shame, this will most likely affect those that actually need the passes, and don't abuse them. But it's a small price to pay if it finally eases the access queues to levels actually manageable by those that need it.

Hopefully Merlin are watching closely, because it's them that really have an issue, I've not noticed it being anywhere near as bad at BPB. (At least not to the degree where people, who are genuinely unable to stand for long times, can't wait in RAP queues sometimes, due to their length!)

*To clarify, as always with this topic, my issue is not, and never will be, with those who really need the service. My issue is with those, who I know personally, or those who have been quick to show off to me when I've met them, who do not need it, but abuse it as a free fast pass. They're ruining it for people who really do need it. And at Alton Towers specifically, the long term and systematic abuse of RAP, amongst regulars, is far more widespread than people might think.

BPB have the same system in place as Merlin parks, where you have to wait the advertised queue time of whatever you've just been on before getting on the next ride. Nobody is skipping any queues or getting free fast track. We're waiting the same amount of time as everyone else, in my case just not having to do it standing up for however long with my legs wobbling and giving way.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to enjoy a day out with a small group of friends where we actually get to ride stuff together. God forbid any disabled person should have friends and a social life. It is by no means the end of the world, but it does as I said mean the group ends up splintering off all day. I've always thought that Merlins cap of 3 guests was the most reasonable.

I'm not going to pretend that RAP systems aren't abused, disability services across the board unfortunately are all facing the same issue. I go to a lot of concerts, where a lot of the time I can gain early access to venues. I can't tell you the amount of times I've been in the access queue with someone "limping"or with an injury, only for them to sprint down to the barrier once we're inside the venue. I don't have the answers on how to solve these issues, I just know from experience that the consequences of this stuff makes it harder for people like me to enjoy these activities. In terms of both applying for access and who we can bring with us, and leads to us once again feeling like second class citizens.

 

[Nicky Borrill]

BPB have the same system in place as Merlin parks, where you have to wait the advertised queue time of whatever you've just been on before getting on the next ride. Nobody is skipping any queues or getting free fast track. We're waiting the same amount of time as everyone else, in my case just not having to do it standing up for however long with my legs wobbling and giving way.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to enjoy a day out with a small group of friends where we actually get to ride stuff together. God forbid any disabled person should have friends and a social life. It is by no means the end of the world, but it does as I said mean the group ends up splintering off all day. I've always thought that Merlins cap of 3 guests was the most reasonable.

I'm not going to pretend that RAP systems aren't abused, disability services across the board unfortunately are all facing the same issue. I go to a lot of concerts, where a lot of the time I can gain early access to venues. I can't tell you the amount of times I've been in the access queue with someone "limping"or with an injury, only for them to sprint down to the barrier once we're inside the venue. I don't have the answers on how to solve these issues, I just know from experience that the consequences of this stuff makes it harder for people like me to enjoy these activities. In terms of both applying for access and who we can bring with us, and leads to us once again feeling like second class citizens.

I have first hand experience from friends and acquaintances (proud of what they do) detailing exactly how the systems are abused. I've written detailed explanations on here before, so I'm not going to go into it again. Partly because it's boring, partly because it seems to offend some people (even though I'm defending them, so long as they're not the abusers.) but also because shining the light on these methods isn't helpful, as nothing is done about it, so the less people that know the better (even if it is already very widespread.)

There's 2 things I would ask you to remember here, if you do not abuse it, and you genuinely need it, then firstly, you may genuinely not be aware of how widespread that abuse is. And, as somebody who has potentially felt discriminated against in the past, you may instinctively (and understandably) be a little defensive on the subject. But secondly, and most importantly, I'm on your side, I WANT Rap to work as well for those that need it, as it used to. It's the abuse that means you still have to stand in ridiculous RAP queues on busy days, defeating the object.

It's also abuse that will have led to the "one friend" thing. I don't think it's penny pinching, I think it's a deterrent. My "why should it be any more" comment was a little harsh, because ultimately I actually agree with you on this too, you should be able to enjoy a day with family and friends, like it used to be. Back in the late 90s / early 00s, when we had to use it with a wheelchair bound family member, it was up to 6 red bands. There was hardly anybody using the system, and it was a god send. That wouldn't be possible now, the abuse has gotten so bad. That's why I say it's a small price to pay if it helps make the system useful again.

BTW one of the methods involves multiple passes per group to avoid timeouts. If that is the same at BPB, those doing it will presumably have to pay £10 or £15 per extra person, once for each pass... A happy silver lining, at least it will affect those abusers more (potentially minimising that angle of attack / abuse?)

 

[Will]

^
This is pretty much off topic now, but I'll chime in again - if you want to see just how ****ed the RAP system is at Merlin, spend an hour working on the Smiler merge point on a busy day. I can't comment on whether the system has improved in the last two years, but I suspect staff are still pretty much powerless to enforce rules - and aren't paid enough to deal with the aggro it usually leads to. Trying to limit to 4 guests and 1 ****ing red band holder per ride vehicle is quite hard enough with some people...

As Nick says, I don't understand why demand for it has increased so much during the time for which I've been visiting parks - and it's next to impossible to police without leaving yourself open to accusations of discrimination... but these are topics that have been done to death.

 

[Fleetwood_Mack]

I have first hand experience from friends and acquaintances (proud of what they do) detailing exactly how the systems are abused. I've written detailed explanations on here before, so I'm not going to go into it again. Partly because it's boring, partly because it seems to offend some people (even though I'm defending them, so long as they're not the abusers.) but also because shining the light on these methods isn't helpful, as nothing is done about it, so the less people that know the better (even if it is already very widespread.)

There's 2 things I would ask you to remember here, if you do not abuse it, and you genuinely need it, then firstly, you may genuinely not be aware of how widespread that abuse is. And, as somebody who has potentially felt discriminated against in the past, you may instinctively (and understandably) be a little defensive on the subject. But secondly, and most importantly, I'm on your side, I WANT Rap to work as well for those that need it, as it used to. It's the abuse that means you still have to stand in ridiculous RAP queues on busy days, defeating the object.

It's also abuse that will have led to the "one friend" thing. I don't think it's penny pinching, I think it's a deterrent. My "why should it be any more" comment was a little harsh, because ultimately I actually agree with you on this too, you should be able to enjoy a day with family and friends, like it used to be. Back in the late 90s / early 00s, when we had to use it with a wheelchair bound family member, it was up to 6 red bands. There was hardly anybody using the system, and it was a god send. That wouldn't be possible now, the abuse has gotten so bad. That's why I say it's a small price to pay if it helps make the system useful again.

BTW one of the methods involves multiple passes per group to avoid timeouts. If that is the same at BPB, those doing it will presumably have to pay £10 or £15 per extra person, once for each pass... A happy silver lining, at least it will affect those abusers more (potentially minimising that angle of attack / abuse?)

Sorry if my reply seemed a bit stand-offish. That wasn't my intention.

The constant labelling of RAP as some kind of free fast-track just bugs me, the way people go on sometimes you'd think these parks were rolling out the red carpet and giving us solid gold toilets to use. The reality is - I ride something like Stealth, then wait the same 60 minutes that everybody else on my train did. That's not some kind of special treatment, that's equality. I'm personally very happy with that. Do I miss 2006 when there were no limits and we could ride as much stuff as we wanted? Yes, but not as much as I miss having the energy to do that It wasn't a fair system, and the older and more neurologically problematic I get the more I enjoy a nice bench to sit on in-between rides anyway!

I personally don't go anywhere like BPB, Towers or Thorpe Park on peak days. I'm a selfish childless millennial, and I like my theme parks how like I like my pubs: without feral crotch goblins running around and screaming all over the shop. Luckily, I've never seen these hideous summer holiday RAP queues and I have no intention of doing so! I am aware of how these types of systems are abused across the board though, I really am. Trouble is, it's impossible to separate those of us who really have access needs and those who are milking it. Like I said earlier, as much as I'd love to I don't have the answers, I just know that paying an extra £5 per person to spend a day with my friends leaves me feeling a bit cold, and punished for something I haven't done.

 

[Nicky Borrill]

Sorry if my reply seemed a bit stand-offish. That wasn't my intention.

The constant labelling of RAP as some kind of free fast-track just bugs me, the way people go on sometimes you'd think these parks were rolling out the red carpet and giving us solid gold toilets to use. The reality is - I ride something like Stealth, then wait the same 60 minutes that everybody else on my train did. That's not some kind of special treatment, that's equality. I'm personally very happy with that. Do I miss 2006 when there were no limits and we could ride as much stuff as we wanted? Yes, but not as much as I miss having the energy to do that It wasn't a fair system, and the older and more neurologically problematic I get the more I enjoy a nice bench to sit on in-between rides anyway!

I personally don't go anywhere like BPB, Towers or Thorpe Park on peak days. I'm a selfish childless millennial, and I like my theme parks how like I like my pubs: without feral crotch goblins running around and screaming all over the shop. Luckily, I've never seen these hideous summer holiday RAP queues and I have no intention of doing so! I am aware of how these types of systems are abused across the board though, I really am. Trouble is, it's impossible to separate those of us who really have access needs and those who are milking it. Like I said earlier, as much as I'd love to I don't have the answers, I just know that paying an extra £5 per person to spend a day with my friends leaves me feeling a bit cold, and punished for something I haven't done.

No I don't think you were stand-offish, don't worry. I just wanted to make it clear that I meant no offence to anybody that needs it, and that I think it's absolutely a vital service. It's NOT a free fast track, but sadly, that's the way those abusing it see it. Like Will I've no idea what it's like now, but a few years ago (at Alton Towers) one of the issues was block outs not being filled out, hopefully they're on top of that now though (I know WIll certainly was! ) The multiple passes per a family thing also circumvents blockouts though, if they haven't fixed that (I have no idea how they could possibly fix it.)

You've hit the problem on the head though, there's no way to see / say who needs it and who's playing the game, with any degree of certainty, and the abusers play on that fact. To make the waters even more muddy, some people will genuinely be in a place where they need it some days, but not other days. I really cannot see what can ever be done about it. But to make the RAP queues bearable at busier times, they needed to reduce the numbers going through it. Seems like this is Blackpool's solution.

Am I right in thinking that Merlin have introduced pre booking RAP, with limited slots per day, in the last couple of years? If so, has that helped at all?

 

[Bowser]

Am I right in thinking that Merlin have introduced pre booking RAP, with limited slots per day, in the last couple of years? If so, has that helped at all?

Yes that's correct, it was introduced last year.

It has somewhat helped but at the same time created new problems as it's virtually impossible to get slots for peak days unless you plan weeks, if not months in advance, which for some of us is not viable. There's also no disincentive to amend/cancel unused slots beyond your own morals so whilst there's a limit of 3 advance bookings per park, there's nothing to stop each card holder having 12 slots permanently on hold.

Each of the Merlin parks operate slightly differently so it's hard to fully assess the impact.

Legoland shares RAP lines with FT so there are typically queues regardless and it's difficult to get ride slots for the more popular attractions once onsite as they're sharing the same digital system. That being said i do think Legoland has the best overall capacity so it's less noticeable.

Alton Towers and Thorpe Park still use the paper system which is susceptible to fraud. I've not been to TP with RAP but our visits to AT last year seemed mildly better. It was hard to truly tell as ride operations/availability were very poor so the lack of digitalisation means all users descend on the few operating rides simultaneously.

Chessington we visit the most and i'd argue it has improved the on-site experience the most.

How is it at Blackpool? We've never been but considering it this year. RAP capacity issues seem to be exclusive to Merlin parks in the UK (there are none at Paultons or Drayton) so i'm wondering which category Blackpool falls into?

 

[Fleetwood_Mack]

I've never had a long wait using RAP at BPB. You sometimes get a choice of what row you sit in too, which is a nice touch. But again, if it can be helped I only visit parks off peak, so come the weekends and holidays it might be a totally different story. On my last visit it was done using a mobile app very similar to what Chessington are/were using. There are a couple of rides where you enter via the fast pass queues from what I remember, but you mostly go to the ride exits for access.

 

[Dar]

With the ticket scanning system BPBB insist on using, I wonder if they could group tickets together into a "RAP group"?

So the lead books their RAP entitlement, and then adds whoever they want to their group in the app. And each ticket can only be in one RAP group, so if you add Geoff to your group, they can't then go and get their own RAP and add you to their group. I'm sure people would still game the system, but it should be less attractive if you need to buy a second, separate entry ticket to do it.

Although you'd need some kind of group size limit so you can't add the whole park!

I'm sure there are obvious loopholes, but it seems a fairer system than charging to keep groups together, and an actual use for the stupid scanners they refuse to remove

 

[Nicky Borrill]

Yes that's correct, it was introduced last year.

It has somewhat helped but at the same time created new problems as it's virtually impossible to get slots for peak days unless you plan weeks, if not months in advance, which for some of us is not viable. There's also no disincentive to amend/cancel unused slots beyond your own morals so whilst there's a limit of 3 advance bookings per park, there's nothing to stop each card holder having 12 slots permanently on hold.

Each of the Merlin parks operate slightly differently so it's hard to fully assess the impact.

Legoland shares RAP lines with FT so there are typically queues regardless and it's difficult to get ride slots for the more popular attractions once onsite as they're sharing the same digital system. That being said i do think Legoland has the best overall capacity so it's less noticeable.

Alton Towers and Thorpe Park still use the paper system which is susceptible to fraud. I've not been to TP with RAP but our visits to AT last year seemed mildly better. It was hard to truly tell as ride operations/availability were very poor so the lack of digitalisation means all users descend on the few operating rides simultaneously.

Chessington we visit the most and i'd argue it has improved the on-site experience the most.

How is it at Blackpool? We've never been but considering it this year. RAP capacity issues seem to be exclusive to Merlin parks in the UK (there are none at Paultons or Drayton) so i'm wondering which category Blackpool falls into?

Thanks So it has it's own issues, probably needs to be tweaked a little bit, but I guess that can happen with time.

I don't know why they can't introduce q-bot to the other parks, to cut the fraud with paper time-outs. With a digital system like that, similar to Dar's suggestion, I wonder if you could have the system request a ticket number for each person to be added to the Q-Bot, with each ticket number only linkable to one q-bot per day. So when you book your Q-Bot you have to enter your own ticket number, and the other 3 friend's ticket numbers. Those ticket numbers are then locked from being able to be used on another Q-Bot that day. That would essentially make it one q-bot per group, no dodging the time-outs.

Let's be honest too, part of the problem is nothing to do with RAP. Alton Towers has had a general capacity issue since they started to recover from 2015. Recent availability issues are only compounding that. They don't have enough ride capacity to keep the regular queue at an acceptable length. never mind trying to juggle fast track and RAP too. If their capacity was improved all around, it would help RAP too.

 

[Bowser]

Thanks So it has it's own issues, probably needs to be tweaked a little bit, but I guess that can happen with time.

I don't know why they can't introduce q-bot to the other parks, to cut the fraud with paper time-outs. With a digital system like that, similar to Dar's suggestion, I wonder if you could have the system request a ticket number for each person to be added to the Q-Bot, with each ticket number only linkable to one q-bot per day. So when you book your Q-Bot you have to enter your own ticket number, and the other 3 friend's ticket numbers. Those ticket numbers are then locked from being able to be used on another Q-Bot that day. That would essentially make it one q-bot per group, no dodging the time-outs.

Let's be honest too, part of the problem is nothing to do with RAP. Alton Towers has had a general capacity issue since they started to recover from 2015. Recent availability issues are only compounding that. They don't have enough ride capacity to keep the regular queue at an acceptable length. never mind trying to juggle fast track and RAP too. If their capacity was improved all around, it would help RAP too.

There's a few minor tweaks they could make such as allowing online booking amendments but i think it's about as good as it's going to get without addressing the eligibility criteria and that's not going to happen.

I don't know why Alton and Thorpe don't have the digital system. I've seen people suggest that the size of Alton and issues with signal coverage is the reason but i'm not convinced by that and certainly wouldn't explain Thorpe.

You're right though, overall capacity is turgid across the Merlin parks and particularly at Alton so it's a combination of factors that you don't typically see elsewhere, to the point that even the broad eligibility seemingly isn't an issue.