WTF BPB?

[Gavin]

I've very much been enjoying the "HOW DARE THEY CLOSE RIDES I NEVER GO ON!!!!!" outrage on the usual Facebook groups.

 

[Munchy Road Hippopotamus]

Thinking of going to BPB on the 15th with my 2 boys, eldest has an Access card and as per normal you can have someone accompany you on the rides, if you want more than 1 person though you have to pay an extra £5 which seems a bit ****ty. What am I going to do, leave my 8 year old to fend for himself and then leave my other kid on his own whilst me and the youngest queue in the normal queue. I know it only £5 and I will obvioulsy pay it I just think it's a bit rubbish

 

[bob_3_]

Thinking of going to BPB on the 15th with my 2 boys, eldest has an Access card and as per normal you can have someone accompany you on the rides, if you want more than 1 person though you have to pay an extra £5 which seems a bit ****ty. What am I going to do, leave my 8 year old to fend for himself and then leave my other kid on his own whilst me and the youngest queue in the normal queue. I know it only £5 and I will obvioulsy pay it I just think it's a bit rubbish

Is it bad that I think that's pretty reasonable?

 

[Bowser]

Is it bad that I think that's pretty reasonable?

It's a tough one. On the one hand the circumstances as per above will be very common where an adult can't possibly leave a child unattended. On the other hand you have a situation like at the Merlin parks where people take advantage of the system and the quantity then makes it unviable for those who really need it so you could argue any sort of deterrent is beneficial.

For those taking advantage is £5 a deterrent for a "free fastpass'? Likely not so it does somewhat amount to a unethical cash grab.

 

[Fleetwood_Mack]

I have mixed feelings about stuff like this. On the surface I'd be happy to shell out the £5 per person myself. It'd be really nice to go to BPB as part of a group of people and actually all be able to ride stuff together. I went with a small group in 2018 and we spent most of the day splintering apart because only one person was allowed to ride with me using the RAP.

Trouble is, we know what happens in these situations, it starts out as £5 one year then slowly creeps up, and up, and up! I also worry that this might set a precedent that it's okay to up-charge people with disabilities for something that able bodied visitors already get included in their ticket, which is a day out with their friends or family where they get to actually spend the day with them. So... it also makes me feel a bit icky.

 

[Munchy Road Hippopotamus]

Is it bad that I think that's pretty reasonable?

You're entitled to your opinion but why the charge? No one else charges and it's not like I have any option but for 3 of us to use the system. It just seems odd (and possibly illegal) to charge someone additionally for someone in their party having a disability. I’m unsure as to why you feel that it is reasonable to charge someone in these circumstances?

I completely understand that these systems are abused by some people and believe me when I tell you that I’d rather not have to use them. However the access card requires you to prove any disability that you or a member of your party has so I’m uncertain how I could be abusing it.

As I say it’s £5 and I have little choice but to pay it however I feel that it is unwarranted and borderline discriminatory.

 

[Nicky Borrill]

It's a tough one. On the one hand the circumstances as per above will be very common where an adult can't possibly leave a child unattended. On the other hand you have a situation like at the Merlin parks where people take advantage of the system and the quantity then makes it unviable for those who really need it so you could argue any sort of deterrent is beneficial.

For those taking advantage is £5 a deterrent for a "free fastpass'? Likely not so it does somewhat amount to a unethical cash grab.

Is it bad that I think that's pretty reasonable?

I get what you're saying, and I generally agree, it should be harder for people to abuse.

But at Merlin parks, those abusing it the worst, have multiple RAPs so that they can alternate between them and avoid time outs. So at BPB, I imagine, the abusers will just register for multiple, to avoid the charge. This will only hurt genuine folks who really need it, people who wouldn't dream of registering every slightly ADHD child (those actually perfectly capable of queuing like normal) just to get extra free fast passes.

I have mixed feelings about stuff like this. On the surface I'd be happy to shell out the £5 per person myself. It'd be really nice to go to BPB as part of a group of people and actually all be able to ride stuff together. I went with a small group in 2018 and we spent most of the day splintering apart because only one person was allowed to ride with me using the RAP.

Trouble is, we know what happens in these situations, it starts out as £5 one year then slowly creeps up, and up, and up! I also worry that this might set a precedent that it's okay to up-charge people with disabilities for something that able bodied visitors already get included in their ticket, which is a day out with their friends or family where they get to actually spend the day with them. So... it also makes me feel a bit icky.

It could be argued that everybody else has to pay to skip the main queue line. You still get one friend / family member to ride with, why should it be any more? Like I said above, it's a shame, this will most likely affect those that actually need the passes, and don't abuse them. But it's a small price to pay if it finally eases the access queues to levels actually manageable by those that need it.

Hopefully Merlin are watching closely, because it's them that really have an issue, I've not noticed it being anywhere near as bad at BPB. (At least not to the degree where people, who are genuinely unable to stand for long times, can't wait in RAP queues sometimes, due to their length!)

*To clarify, as always with this topic, my issue is not, and never will be, with those who really need the service. My issue is with those, who I know personally, or those who have been quick to show off to me when I've met them, who do not need it, but abuse it as a free fast pass. They're ruining it for people who really do need it. And at Alton Towers specifically, the long term and systematic abuse of RAP, amongst regulars, is far more widespread than people might think.

 

[Fleetwood_Mack]

I get what you're saying, and I generally agree, it should be harder for people to abuse.

But at Merlin parks, those abusing it the worst, have multiple RAPs so that they can alternate between them and avoid time outs. So at BPB, I imagine, the abusers will just register for multiple, to avoid the charge. This will only hurt genuine folks who really need it, people who wouldn't dream of registering every slightly ADHD child (those actually perfectly capable of queuing like normal) just to get extra free fast passes.



It could be argued that everybody else has to pay to skip the main queue line. You still get one friend / family member to ride with, why should it be any more? Like I said above, it's a shame, this will most likely affect those that actually need the passes, and don't abuse them. But it's a small price to pay if it finally eases the access queues to levels actually manageable by those that need it.

Hopefully Merlin are watching closely, because it's them that really have an issue, I've not noticed it being anywhere near as bad at BPB. (At least not to the degree where people, who are genuinely unable to stand for long times, can't wait in RAP queues sometimes, due to their length!)

*To clarify, as always with this topic, my issue is not, and never will be, with those who really need the service. My issue is with those, who I know personally, or those who have been quick to show off to me when I've met them, who do not need it, but abuse it as a free fast pass. They're ruining it for people who really do need it. And at Alton Towers specifically, the long term and systematic abuse of RAP, amongst regulars, is far more widespread than people might think.

BPB have the same system in place as Merlin parks, where you have to wait the advertised queue time of whatever you've just been on before getting on the next ride. Nobody is skipping any queues or getting free fast track. We're waiting the same amount of time as everyone else, in my case just not having to do it standing up for however long with my legs wobbling and giving way.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to enjoy a day out with a small group of friends where we actually get to ride stuff together. God forbid any disabled person should have friends and a social life. It is by no means the end of the world, but it does as I said mean the group ends up splintering off all day. I've always thought that Merlins cap of 3 guests was the most reasonable.

I'm not going to pretend that RAP systems aren't abused, disability services across the board unfortunately are all facing the same issue. I go to a lot of concerts, where a lot of the time I can gain early access to venues. I can't tell you the amount of times I've been in the access queue with someone "limping"or with an injury, only for them to sprint down to the barrier once we're inside the venue. I don't have the answers on how to solve these issues, I just know from experience that the consequences of this stuff makes it harder for people like me to enjoy these activities. In terms of both applying for access and who we can bring with us, and leads to us once again feeling like second class citizens.

 

[Nicky Borrill]

BPB have the same system in place as Merlin parks, where you have to wait the advertised queue time of whatever you've just been on before getting on the next ride. Nobody is skipping any queues or getting free fast track. We're waiting the same amount of time as everyone else, in my case just not having to do it standing up for however long with my legs wobbling and giving way.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to enjoy a day out with a small group of friends where we actually get to ride stuff together. God forbid any disabled person should have friends and a social life. It is by no means the end of the world, but it does as I said mean the group ends up splintering off all day. I've always thought that Merlins cap of 3 guests was the most reasonable.

I'm not going to pretend that RAP systems aren't abused, disability services across the board unfortunately are all facing the same issue. I go to a lot of concerts, where a lot of the time I can gain early access to venues. I can't tell you the amount of times I've been in the access queue with someone "limping"or with an injury, only for them to sprint down to the barrier once we're inside the venue. I don't have the answers on how to solve these issues, I just know from experience that the consequences of this stuff makes it harder for people like me to enjoy these activities. In terms of both applying for access and who we can bring with us, and leads to us once again feeling like second class citizens.

I have first hand experience from friends and acquaintances (proud of what they do) detailing exactly how the systems are abused. I've written detailed explanations on here before, so I'm not going to go into it again. Partly because it's boring, partly because it seems to offend some people (even though I'm defending them, so long as they're not the abusers.) but also because shining the light on these methods isn't helpful, as nothing is done about it, so the less people that know the better (even if it is already very widespread.)

There's 2 things I would ask you to remember here, if you do not abuse it, and you genuinely need it, then firstly, you may genuinely not be aware of how widespread that abuse is. And, as somebody who has potentially felt discriminated against in the past, you may instinctively (and understandably) be a little defensive on the subject. But secondly, and most importantly, I'm on your side, I WANT Rap to work as well for those that need it, as it used to. It's the abuse that means you still have to stand in ridiculous RAP queues on busy days, defeating the object.

It's also abuse that will have led to the "one friend" thing. I don't think it's penny pinching, I think it's a deterrent. My "why should it be any more" comment was a little harsh, because ultimately I actually agree with you on this too, you should be able to enjoy a day with family and friends, like it used to be. Back in the late 90s / early 00s, when we had to use it with a wheelchair bound family member, it was up to 6 red bands. There was hardly anybody using the system, and it was a god send. That wouldn't be possible now, the abuse has gotten so bad. That's why I say it's a small price to pay if it helps make the system useful again.

BTW one of the methods involves multiple passes per group to avoid timeouts. If that is the same at BPB, those doing it will presumably have to pay £10 or £15 per extra person, once for each pass... A happy silver lining, at least it will affect those abusers more (potentially minimising that angle of attack / abuse?)

 

[Will]

^
This is pretty much off topic now, but I'll chime in again - if you want to see just how ****ed the RAP system is at Merlin, spend an hour working on the Smiler merge point on a busy day. I can't comment on whether the system has improved in the last two years, but I suspect staff are still pretty much powerless to enforce rules - and aren't paid enough to deal with the aggro it usually leads to. Trying to limit to 4 guests and 1 ****ing red band holder per ride vehicle is quite hard enough with some people...

As Nick says, I don't understand why demand for it has increased so much during the time for which I've been visiting parks - and it's next to impossible to police without leaving yourself open to accusations of discrimination... but these are topics that have been done to death.

 

[Fleetwood_Mack]

I have first hand experience from friends and acquaintances (proud of what they do) detailing exactly how the systems are abused. I've written detailed explanations on here before, so I'm not going to go into it again. Partly because it's boring, partly because it seems to offend some people (even though I'm defending them, so long as they're not the abusers.) but also because shining the light on these methods isn't helpful, as nothing is done about it, so the less people that know the better (even if it is already very widespread.)

There's 2 things I would ask you to remember here, if you do not abuse it, and you genuinely need it, then firstly, you may genuinely not be aware of how widespread that abuse is. And, as somebody who has potentially felt discriminated against in the past, you may instinctively (and understandably) be a little defensive on the subject. But secondly, and most importantly, I'm on your side, I WANT Rap to work as well for those that need it, as it used to. It's the abuse that means you still have to stand in ridiculous RAP queues on busy days, defeating the object.

It's also abuse that will have led to the "one friend" thing. I don't think it's penny pinching, I think it's a deterrent. My "why should it be any more" comment was a little harsh, because ultimately I actually agree with you on this too, you should be able to enjoy a day with family and friends, like it used to be. Back in the late 90s / early 00s, when we had to use it with a wheelchair bound family member, it was up to 6 red bands. There was hardly anybody using the system, and it was a god send. That wouldn't be possible now, the abuse has gotten so bad. That's why I say it's a small price to pay if it helps make the system useful again.

BTW one of the methods involves multiple passes per group to avoid timeouts. If that is the same at BPB, those doing it will presumably have to pay £10 or £15 per extra person, once for each pass... A happy silver lining, at least it will affect those abusers more (potentially minimising that angle of attack / abuse?)

Sorry if my reply seemed a bit stand-offish. That wasn't my intention.

The constant labelling of RAP as some kind of free fast-track just bugs me, the way people go on sometimes you'd think these parks were rolling out the red carpet and giving us solid gold toilets to use. The reality is - I ride something like Stealth, then wait the same 60 minutes that everybody else on my train did. That's not some kind of special treatment, that's equality. I'm personally very happy with that. Do I miss 2006 when there were no limits and we could ride as much stuff as we wanted? Yes, but not as much as I miss having the energy to do that It wasn't a fair system, and the older and more neurologically problematic I get the more I enjoy a nice bench to sit on in-between rides anyway!

I personally don't go anywhere like BPB, Towers or Thorpe Park on peak days. I'm a selfish childless millennial, and I like my theme parks how like I like my pubs: without feral crotch goblins running around and screaming all over the shop. Luckily, I've never seen these hideous summer holiday RAP queues and I have no intention of doing so! I am aware of how these types of systems are abused across the board though, I really am. Trouble is, it's impossible to separate those of us who really have access needs and those who are milking it. Like I said earlier, as much as I'd love to I don't have the answers, I just know that paying an extra £5 per person to spend a day with my friends leaves me feeling a bit cold, and punished for something I haven't done.