Unsafe/dangerous rides and coasters

[tribar]

I've never been on a ride thank felt was unsafe. If a ride was unsafe it would not be allowed to operate. So really there is no correct answer

 

[furie]

Ahem...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/sout ... 666562.stm

Okay, it didn't technically operate completely, but...

 

[Jordanovichy]

I love the quote:

He noticed this missing piece of track and realised there might be a disaster looming

There might be a disaster. 16ft of missing track...might be a disaster, little things.

I don't like to sound harsh but letting a coaster run with half the **** track missing is just hilarious in such a monumentally stupid way. I mean how could you a. not know a major attraction was shut anyway b. not see the blasted thing! Still, each to their own I suppose.

 

[CoasterCrazy]

^That's just slightly worrying. Just how didn't they tell the park staff it was down for maintenance (or why didn't they listen) ?

None of us really know (well, apart from Chinese knock-offs) whether a ride is unsafe - we just think it is.

Ultimately, I believe this boils down to the purpose of the roller coaster. The aim, especially with woodies, is undoubtedly to simulate the feeling of being out-of control, whilst at the same time being pretty much perfectly safe, which creates the real 'thrill' from the adrenalin gland. Hence why people scream - they're tricked into feeling genuinely in peril and can do nothing to avert their fate. So, in essence, this is a bit of a controversial question, which could be - what's the most extreme ride you've been on?

So with the BPB Wild Mouse, many hate it because it feels malicious and just wants to kill you. But some love it because of that - do you see what I mean?? :twisted: I guess that's slightly why people find B&Ms boring and forceless too.

For me...Sequoia Adventure at GL was probably the most terrifying coaster experience I've experienced because you just start to wonder if the restraint will hold you...then there's the though of an inverted E-stop. Ouch.

 

[gavin]

^Can you please link us to the pages that give details for accidents on the Chinese knock off coasters please, since we "know" they're dangerous.

Thanks.

 

[ECG]

Yeah. I've ridden several Chinese knock-offs, in Mexico to boot, but never felt that they were unsafe or dangerous.

 

[marc]

I actually find the brakes on older coasters dangerous.

Take scorpion and Busch for example, I actually smacked my head on the seat on the seat in front I know alway brace myself.

 

[Youngster Joey]

La Vibora

 

[ECG]

La Vibora

Sorry, but there's absolutely nothing unsafe or dangerous about an Intamin Swiss Bob.

 

[Snoo]

Beech Bend brings back fond memories of thinking I was going to die for some reason.

 

[ECG]

^Dragon coaster of Death!!! :lol:

 

[CoasterCrazy]

^Can you please link us to the pages that give details for accidents on the Chinese knock off coasters please, since we "know" they're dangerous.

Thanks.

Well to be honest, it was merely a half-satirical, half-serious remark, since I do often feel that is the general consensus on this site. I wouldn't necessarily state a Chinese Knock-off itself is unsafe and more so than any Intamin creation - it might be vile, but as I said earlier, this is no indication of safety. I would expect them to be a fraction more dangerous than a B&M, but then everything is comparatively unsafe.

Part of the reason why many perceive them to be unsafe pertains to maintenance. Very few parks which buy from B&M are undergoing great financial troubles - thus they can keep to strict routines. If the paint jobs of knock-offs are anything to go by, then who knows what else has been poorly maintained? Also, surely if the quality of the coaster's restraints and layout is poor, then what about the ride systems? Just because accidents haven't occurred in the past, it doesn't mean they won't in the future.

Here are some examples then:

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2010 ... k-mystery/

Also, would we necessarily hear about any minor incidents in the west? Are the Chinese press vultures like they are in the UK? (I honestly don't know)

I wouldn't go so far as saying they're 'death traps'. They're just undoubtedly going to be more unreliable than a more expensive model from a better company. Just look at knock-off watches for proof.

Sorry for the long winded argument though....just defending myself.

 

[njn63]

Also, would we necessarily hear about any minor incidents in the west? Are the Chinese press vultures like they are in the UK? (I honestly don't know)

Chinese media is state run and heavily censored. They do not report things that may embarrass the government. They do not control press around the world obviously but it makes it that much harder to get information.

Example of Chinese censorship to save face:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beijing_Te ... Censorship

 

[VF15]

Well, before I was an enthusiast, all roller coasters made me fear for my life, including small ones. Now, none of them actually scare me, but a few coasters with poor maintenance did feel a little concerning.

 

[nadroJ]

As with any machinery, coasters will always have the potential to fail. There is always going to be that chance that things will go wrong. But these rides do go through numerous tests and, even in particularly BACKWARDS countries like the mystical land of China, there is an element of health and safety that helps to prevent back stuff from happening.

That said, we've on been on rides where something just feels.....off and a bit ghetto? Can't believe nobody has mentioned the Chance Toboggans yet. Those things are literally like death waiting to happen. Obviously I never truly believe my car would separate from the track and I was fall to my death, but there was an inkling.

 

[sparky2u]

It's amazing no-one has said the "Ultimate" at LWV, this does look like it should not pass H&S, but it's one hell of a ride esp the 2nd 1/2, the wheels etc must take such a massive hammering each season.

"Wild Mouse" at BPB is a coaster masterpiece, =D> =D> I love it, shame it's not higher & longer.

 

[gavin]

I just want to make it clear that I’m not posting here to have a go at CoasterCrazy specifically, but some of the points that he’s (she’s?) raised just keep cropping up with Chinese coasters and I find it largely unfair, over-generalised, based on little actual information and/or misinformed.

Part of the reason why many perceive them to be unsafe pertains to maintenance. Very few parks which buy from B&M are undergoing great financial troubles - thus they can keep to strict routines. If the paint jobs of knock-offs are anything to go by, then who knows what else has been poorly maintained?

Here’s my first problem, the perception of poor maintenance: “who knows”? You don’t, so it’s unfair to make those assumptions. I can tell you from personal experience that even at the crappy little parks, I’m constantly seeing maintenance crews both working on rides and carrying out checks before they open. I’m not going to pretend to be an expert on exactly what they’re doing, but they’re doing something; these rides aren't just sitting there rotting, despite the appearance of some.

This perception of “financial troubles” is also coming from nowhere. The cost of staffing/maintenance in China is a LOT lower than in the West. The business model will be the same, too; if they don’t make money, they close.

We also know that a paint job is not an indication of safety. I could link you to dozens of coasters in European/American parks, including some B&Ms, with terribly-maintained paint jobs. Do we interpret that as scrimping on safety? No.

Just because accidents haven't occurred in the past, it doesn't mean they won't in the future.

The same can be said for ANY coaster from ANY manufacturer at ANY park. In fact, based on what we know, the Chinese coasters, if you’re looking at numbers of known fatalities, are safer than, say, Intamin. You can’t form a judgment on something that hasn’t happened, based solely on the unfounded assumption that it might.

Also, so many of the coasters have ridiculously over-the-top restraint systems with numerous redundant straps and seatbelts, more so than on the majority of Western coasters, and even on very small rides.

Here are some examples then:

Without giving/knowing the situation/circumstance of that picture, you can’t use it to demonstrate an unsafe coaster.

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2010/07/05/deadly-chinese-amusement-park-mystery/

A horrendous accident, but not indicative of a larger problem with Chinese rides. Do we label all Schwarzkopf/Canadian coasters as unsafe based on the Mindbender incident?

Also, from the same article:

This is the first time in my over three decades working in this field that I have ever encountered such a mass-casualty accident,” said Bi Jianbin, vice chairman of the China Association of Amusement Parks and Attractions. It was a “huge shock” to experts, Bi said.

It was a one-off. An awful, tragic one-off, but a one-off nonetheless, like numerous other horrific, one-off accidents the world over.

Also, would we necessarily hear about any minor incidents in the west? Are the Chinese press vultures like they are in the UK? (I honestly don't know)

Chinese media is state run and heavily censored. They do not report things that may embarrass the government. They do not control press around the world obviously but it makes it that much harder to get information.

These days, information is a lot more freely available in China thanks to the Internet. Yes, there’s press censorship, but that’s with regards to criticizing the government, not individuals or companies. Even with any censorship, information is freely shared online these days. Although some sites are blocked (Facebook for example), getting around those blocks is incredibly easy and the Chinese are actually extremely vocal about perceived injustices and social problems.

Would we find out about every minor theme park issue? No, but if people are getting injured and/or killed left right and centre, then we’d definitely hear about it. Hell, there are even Chinese enthusiast sites now, and some Western sites also have Chinese members.

I wouldn't go so far as saying they're 'death traps'. They're just undoubtedly going to be more unreliable than a more expensive model from a better company.

Why “undoubtedly”? Where are you getting this information from? For the most part, they are EXACT replicas of the “better” companies’ rides and coasters. They’re reverse-engineered. They’re only cheaper because of lower labour costs, lower construction costs and MUCH lower transport costs. Also, I’d imagine they spend very little money on product development since they just steal the designs of others. Ethically, I agree that it’s disgusting, but the savings that they make on R&D must be huge, giving another reason that they can sell the products a lot more cheaply. It’s not an indication of final product quality.

This idea that some people seem to have that these Chinese companies just get some unqualified wage monkey to just bend a bit of metal and throw a train on it is ridiculous. These companies are huge, multi-million dollar companies.

Like I said, the intention here is not to have a go at you specifically. It’s just that you were the one to bring up the tired Chinese knockoff argument, which somebody would’ve done eventually, and it’s just a pet peeve of mine that I wanted to address. I’m not claiming to be an expert just because I’ve been to a few Chinese parks. I’ve got next to zero knowledge when it comes to the science and design of coasters, but I’m the first to admit that and don’t make unfounded assumptions based on a paint job, some elitist notion of “better”, or jumping on a bandwagon.

Having said that,

Just look at knock-off watches for proof.

I’m not going to justify that ridiculous statement with a response since the only way to do that would be to personally insult your intelligence. You're better than that.

 

[CoasterCrazy]

I just want to make it clear that I’m not posting here to have a go at CoasterCrazy specifically, but some of the points that he’s (she’s?) raised just keep cropping up with Chinese coasters and I find it largely unfair, over-generalised, based on little actual information and/or misinformed.

I am a 'he' for future reference. Anyway, perhaps you don't fully understand the point I am attempting to make, since this is such a vigorous response to what commenced as merely a throwaway comment. To clarify, I've never stated Chinese knock-offs are unsafe or dangerous, that would be a crime against coasters, just they are likely to be slightly more unreliable and thus less safe than, say, a B&M. Because, let's face it, what's safer than a B&M? This is more so of a 2 in more than several billion chance of an accident in contrast to the 1 in several billion (of course these are unrealistic examples) for a B&M.

Having said that,

Just look at knock-off watches for proof.

I’m not going to justify that ridiculous statement with a response since the only way to do that would be to personally insult your intelligence. You're better than that.

Well, give or take a little hyperbole, this is exactly the principle I was trying to convey actually. You may say the two are incomparable, which is true for the variation in reliability between the two - if there was, then...Anyway, that's not the point. This goes back to your principle of 'reverse-engineering'. Of course the process varies wildly, but the very fundamentals are the same. They didn't design the knock-off watch, so it is unlikely to be as operational and the company are unlikely to be more knowledgeable on it than the company who purpose-designed it in the first place. You can only gain a certain amount from looking at the components - to manufacture an EXACT copy, you would need all the design specs.

Why “undoubtedly”? Where are you getting this information from? For the most part, they are EXACT replicas of the “better” companies’ rides and coasters. They’re reverse-engineered. They’re only cheaper because of lower labour costs, lower construction costs and MUCH lower transport costs. Also, I’d imagine they spend very little money on product development since they just steal the designs of others. Ethically, I agree that it’s disgusting, but the savings that they make on R&D must be huge, giving another reason that they can sell the products a lot more cheaply. It’s not an indication of final product quality.

Since when are knock-offs 'mostly' EXACT replicas? Admittedly, certain Golden Horse model lines can seem similar, but if they're mostly exact replicas, then how come they're so extraordinarily painful? Why do many have such poor pacing? Why are they shaped poorly? In fact, I could easily distinguish a knock-off from its original just by looking at it, even with GH spinners.

It becomes a matter of which you trust more, an imitation or the original designed by the company. Lets just take the rip-off SLC below as an example of how knock-offs can vary profoundly from the originals.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGbH_m0EYnE[/youtube]

Ouch. Over time, just how much damage will that inflict on the wheel assembly and the track itself? This company is (SBL) is unable to emulate the Vekoma elements, so it is very unlikely their safety systems will be parallel. Whilst some rides may feature abundant redundant seatbelts, this is in no sense safer than a single belt or no belt in fact - in fact, surely this indicates a lack of confidence in the restraint (just a suggestion? Take a look at this one too:

It is unquestionable that some of these manufactures are far less attentive to detail.

Anyway, here's more evidence that whilst Chinese manufacturing may be brilliant, their designs are...I'll let you see for yourself.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20079534/ns/us_news-life/t/thought-dead-minneapolis-bridge-collapses/

So does this make American Bridges poorly designed? For comparison:

Meanwhile, in China (source: Bloomberg article from August 29th, 2012):

"Since 2007, China has experienced at least 18 bridge collapses resulting in 135 deaths and untold economic hardship, according to records aggregated by the South China Morning Post, the leading English-language newspaper in Hong Kong.

Just take a look in this topic which you might remember: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=35295&hilit=Chinese+Rip+off+rundown&start=14

This idea that some people seem to have that these Chinese companies just get some unqualified wage monkey to just bend a bit of metal and throw a train on it is ridiculous. These companies are huge, multi-million dollar companies [does this necessarily mean greater quality? Peugeot is a multi million dollar MNC, yet cars are still unreliable]

Like I said, the intention here is not to have a go at you specifically. It’s just that you were the one to bring up the tired Chinese knockoff argument, which somebody would’ve done eventually, and it’s just a pet peeve of mine that I wanted to address. I’m not claiming to be an expert just because I’ve been to a few Chinese parks. I’ve got next to zero knowledge when it comes to the science and design of coasters, but I’m the first to admit that and don’t make unfounded assumptions based on a paint job, some elitist notion of “better”, or jumping on a bandwagon.

At the end of the day, I understand your similar exaggeration, but I'm just defending the views of countless others on the site who would trust knock-offs slightly less. I'm sorry to prolong this debate to the boredom of onlookers.

In my books, less R&D, even if they are studying an authentic version, means some important (safety) features may not be present. The manufacture of parts may be generally sound, but you can only manufacture to the company's specifications which will vary from the original version.

 

[gavin]

To clarify, I've never stated Chinese knock-offs are unsafe or dangerous

Well, actually, you really did, which was what prompted the response in the first place:

None of us really know (well, apart from Chinese knock-offs) whether a ride is unsafe

They didn't design the knock-off watch, so it is unlikely to be as operational and the company are unlikely to be more knowledgeable on it than the company who purpose-designed it in the first place.

Ok, I see more where you're coming from on that one now, but it's still not a great comparison to be honest. The purpose of a cheap knockoff watch is more about the aesthetic than a high-quality piece of machinery. They won't be subject to health and safety checks (believe it or not, China does have them) to get them signed off, they don't cost millions per unit to produce, and a faulty model doesn't have the potential to kill someone. Again, I see your point more clearly than before, but it's not the best comparison to make.

Since when are knock-offs 'mostly' EXACT replicas? Admittedly, certain Golden Horse model lines can seem similar

Alright, so "exact" wasn't the best choice of words. However, it's only really the SLCs that vary in any significant way. I think it's just that they get the most attention since they were the first ones to appear on our radar and exactly because there's a variation in layout.

how come they're so extraordinarily painful?

Which ones have you found to be painful? Yes, the SLCs have that reputation and you absolutely can tell from the shaping/pacing of them that they're not going to give a smooth ride. I've only ridden one of them, so I can't make a fair call on them. It was pretty bad, but no worse than the roughest Vekoma SLC I've ridden. The Golden Horse "Kumali" layout ripoff doesn't seem to have the same issues though.

The spinners ride the same as the model they were ripped off from, apart from perhaps the pacing, depending on how much the block brakes kick in.

Anyway, this is going off the point. How does roughness make them dangerous? If you mean this:

Over time, just how much damage will that inflict on the wheel assembly and the track itself? This company is (SBL) is unable to emulate the Vekoma elements, so it is very unlikely their safety systems will be parallel.

Then we're going back to "what if" and "would/could/should" arguments that make the assumption that the rides are poorly maintained and that any safety system has to be inferior. I'm not saying that they're absolutely up to scratch because I don't know, in the same way that none of us here knows. We're making assumptions on safety based on some weird shaping, poor paint jobs and accidents that haven't happened.

I'm just defending the views of countless others on the site who would trust knock-offs slightly less. I'm sorry to prolong this debate to the boredom of onlookers.

Fair enough, and I'm simply pointing out the "views of countless others" are over-generalised and demonstrated (not from you, but from many) through largely "OMG!! It's such a deathtrap!! LOL". When people have a "view" based on zero actual knowledge of the subject - and this goes for anything, not just coasters - then I think it should be challenged.

If people are bored by this discussion, they don't have to read it. It was a crap topic anyway, with no actually decent points being made beyond "This coaster shook me around a bit; therefore:dangerous!"

Sorry if I hijacked such a thoughtful and exciting thread.

 

[Pierre]

I was born the day after the Mindbender accident. Wonder if I'm a reincarnation if one of those unfortunate souls. Hmmm.