Thorpe Park | Derren Brown's Ghost Train | VR Attraction

[Darren B]

Re: Thorpe Park construction?

^We keep hearing Thorpe is the worse performing park, but, where is the evidence? I'm not disputing it, just, I want to see it with my own eyes.

Thorpe CAN get teens to buy more, they just need to stop trying to push products that won't sell to a teen/thrill seeker audience.

 

[Robbie]

Re: Thorpe Park construction?

^We keep hearing Thorpe is the worse performing park, but, where is the evidence? I'm not disputing it, just, I want to see it with my own eyes.

According to TEA, Merlin's UK theme park attendance in 2013 was:

1. Alton Towers - 2.5m (up 4.2% on 2012)
2. Legoland - 2.05m (up 2.5%)
3. Thorpe Park - 2m (up 11.1%)
4. Chessington - 1.5m (up 15.4%)

The suggestion is that Chessington's doing so well by being a "family resort destination" while Thorpe is up thanks to extended hours with things like Ministry of Sound nights.

Of course, attendance doesn't take into account profitability or upsell and I would expect the family parks to easily beat Thorpe for souvenirs, food, and merch sales.

 

[marc]

Re: Thorpe Park construction?

Will be more interesting to see the 2014 results tbh.

 

[Mysterious Sue]

Re: Thorpe Park construction?

Families definitely spend more than teens. No proof but common sense suggests:

1. Families may have to budget but in theory they earn way more than teens
2. Families are more likely to travel further but visit less often therefore they spend more on souvenirs and food at the park as it is a special occasion. They are also more likely to pay for car parking
3. The parks rely on pester power by kids for a lot of their up-selling - sweets, souvenirs ect. That's where they make their profit, not on gate prices! (no-one buys full price tickets to Thorpe, families or teens)

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Re: Thorpe Park construction?

I get the impression Chessington performs worse, but it's rising and has been since the addition of Wild asia.. Thorpe isn't rising as predicted, it's like it's reached a plateau after years of heavy investment, attendance rises and revenue rises. And that concerns them, because they put more money into Thorpe and it was going up and up and up... Thorpe make a heck of a lot on fast track, I suspect Alton do too, but Chessie do not...

Families definitely spend more than individuals. Except when it comes to stuff like fastrack, which gets expensive and unconsiderable when you've gotta account for more than just yourself. But they spend more on food, more on merchandise, more on entry, more likely to come by car so pay for the car park, etc.

There's a reason all the major destination parks choose families as their target market and all the teen-adult aimed parks have problems. Just look at Six Flags and Cedar Fair.

IMO, the best quality parks as the weird hybrids - the Busch parks, Portaventura, Phantasialand, Alton Towers, Dollywood etc. They target families, have varied, high quality attractions, but they don't skimp on high quality thrill rides either. Why? Because they know that if you spend big bucks on a major coaster that has presence (like a B&M), it'll be easy to market.

Look at Busch Williamsburg (old school, not so much now, they're being weird now) and Dollywood - their targeted marketing audience audience don't ride the coasters. So why do they have them? Because they're easy to market and are guaranteed to bring people in, whilst the overall quality and reputation keeps their target returning. The coasters are like boosts, not staples.

Herein lies Thorpe's problem. Their staple is coaster after coaster and an assortment of fairground flat rides. Their lineup is good, their assortment varied, and the insane speed of their growth made them fantastic for the greedy and impatient young adult audience. But in seeking that, they completely shut off the family market. It's wise to, whilst specialising, still provide for all bases.

 

[pitchnoir]

Re: Thorpe Park construction?

full clearing has started

 

[Darren B]

Re: Thorpe Park construction?

I get the impression Chessington performs worse, but it's rising and has been since the addition of Wild asia.. Thorpe isn't rising as predicted, it's like it's reached a plateau after years of heavy investment, attendance rises and revenue rises. And that concerns them, because they put more money into Thorpe and it was going up and up and up... Thorpe make a heck of a lot on fast track, I suspect Alton do too, but Chessie do not...

Families definitely spend more than individuals. Except when it comes to stuff like fastrack, which gets expensive and unconsiderable when you've gotta account for more than just yourself. But they spend more on food, more on merchandise, more on entry, more likely to come by car so pay for the car park, etc.

There's a reason all the major destination parks choose families as their target market and all the teen-adult aimed parks have problems. Just look at Six Flags and Cedar Fair.

IMO, the best quality parks as the weird hybrids - the Busch parks, Portaventura, Phantasialand, Alton Towers, Dollywood etc. They target families, have varied, high quality attractions, but they don't skimp on high quality thrill rides either. Why? Because they know that if you spend big bucks on a major coaster that has presence (like a B&M), it'll be easy to market.

Look at Busch Williamsburg (old school, not so much now, they're being weird now) and Dollywood - their targeted marketing audience audience don't ride the coasters. So why do they have them? Because they're easy to market and are guaranteed to bring people in, whilst the overall quality and reputation keeps their target returning. The coasters are like boosts, not staples.

Herein lies Thorpe's problem. Their staple is coaster after coaster and an assortment of fairground flat rides. Their lineup is good, their assortment varied, and the insane speed of their growth made them fantastic for the greedy and impatient young adult audience. But in seeking that, they completely shut off the family market. It's wise to, whilst specialising, still provide for all bases.

Can you elaborate how Cedar Point in particular has struggled. By all means explain how Kings Island and Canada's Wonderland have struggled too. Thanks

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Re: Thorpe Park construction?

I get the impression Chessington performs worse, but it's rising and has been since the addition of Wild asia.. Thorpe isn't rising as predicted, it's like it's reached a plateau after years of heavy investment, attendance rises and revenue rises. And that concerns them, because they put more money into Thorpe and it was going up and up and up... Thorpe make a heck of a lot on fast track, I suspect Alton do too, but Chessie do not...

Families definitely spend more than individuals. Except when it comes to stuff like fastrack, which gets expensive and unconsiderable when you've gotta account for more than just yourself. But they spend more on food, more on merchandise, more on entry, more likely to come by car so pay for the car park, etc.

There's a reason all the major destination parks choose families as their target market and all the teen-adult aimed parks have problems. Just look at Six Flags and Cedar Fair.

IMO, the best quality parks as the weird hybrids - the Busch parks, Portaventura, Phantasialand, Alton Towers, Dollywood etc. They target families, have varied, high quality attractions, but they don't skimp on high quality thrill rides either. Why? Because they know that if you spend big bucks on a major coaster that has presence (like a B&M), it'll be easy to market.

Look at Busch Williamsburg (old school, not so much now, they're being weird now) and Dollywood - their targeted marketing audience audience don't ride the coasters. So why do they have them? Because they're easy to market and are guaranteed to bring people in, whilst the overall quality and reputation keeps their target returning. The coasters are like boosts, not staples.

Herein lies Thorpe's problem. Their staple is coaster after coaster and an assortment of fairground flat rides. Their lineup is good, their assortment varied, and the insane speed of their growth made them fantastic for the greedy and impatient young adult audience. But in seeking that, they completely shut off the family market. It's wise to, whilst specialising, still provide for all bases.

Can you elaborate how Cedar Point in particular has struggled. By all means explain how Kings Island and Canada's Wonderland have struggled too. Thanks

Cedar Point, and more so Canada's Wonderland, are unusual exceptions to the rule. CW has no competition and that's a pretty easy explanation.

CP, and the surrounding parks, are weird though. Like, the whole history of SeaWorld/Geauga Lake is weird, and the fact Kings Island also does so well despite it's comparative closeness to Cedar Point... After CW, CP has the highest attendance of any seasonal park in N.America, and KI ain't far behind. But the ranks are dominated by family aimed theme parks. Even high quality amusement parks are few and far between, the likes of Six Flags MM and GAdv barely make the list. Ohio is a densely populated state, which is undoubtably one of the reasons both KI and CP are supported, with KI being so close to a major city. And that's important - Look at Knotts compared to MM. Or the fact that Six Flags overall has higher attendance than CF, because most of their parks are in better locations. Hershey is another, what I would call thrill amusement park (though it likes to think it's a family theme park, as does Knott's), that does well, but it has a brand and is in a tourist location... All these parks, with the weird exception of CP and Hershey, target local people.

Location typically dictates audience - family parks are either in tourism areas, create tourism areas by forming clusters OR in areas with families on good incomes... More typical amusement parks, catering to individuals because the local families can't afford to visit, are more common in less well to do areas. That audience probably spend more money per head, but less of them visit and attracting them puts off other kinds of guest fast. Which is the rut Thorpe has found itself in. The park reached a point where it's just unpleasant to be in, regardless of your ride style preferences.

Unfortunately, we can't actually find out what each parks are making on an individual basis.

But, if families are not the way to go financially, then why are the vast majority of highest attended parks high themed family theme parks?

Most of the thrill based amusement parks have either turned to families in recent years or cut back on operations and spending whilst high themed environments are growing in popularity.

 

[Darren B]

Re: Thorpe Park construction?

^I completely agree with you to be honest.

My biggest theory, though, is that Cedar Point has the ability to draw back customers on a regular basis due to the high quality of their attractions. This is my argument that ties in Thorpe. Build world class attractions and your customers will return month after month, year after year. Thorpe haven't hit that standard.

Cedar Point can boast Maverick, Top Thrill Dragster, Millennium Force and a plethora of fantastic support rides. Although I don't hold these rides in such high standing as others do, I can clearly see why they're so popular. And I can see why people are enticed back on a regular basis.

Now move onto Cedar Points draws as a family park - there are next to none. On my sole visit the park was heaving. 2-4 hour queues for the coasters. The children's area - empty. There really was a lack of anyone under 10 in the park, emphasising the fact that Cedar Point is very much a park for older families and thrill seekers. There's no pull for younger families. Maybe it isn't due to lack of attractions, Cedar Point seems to have a strong lineup of rides for children. Maybe, it's down to the fact that families don't see Cedar Point with it's plethora of thrill rides, a suitable place for to take their young children. I suspect the later.

Now put Thorpe on the same peg as Cedar Point, because let's face it, Thorpe is a smaller, British take on Cedar Point. It attracts almost identically the same customer base, and is filled with high octane thrill rides throughout the park.

There is a demand for such a park in the UK, and Thorpe were well on their way to becoming that park. They removed family rides and replaced them with bigger, thrill focused rides. Then, they hit a wall. But instead of smashing through that wall, they turned back on themselves and have ended up in a bit of a predicament.

I've always said that Thorpe is 2 majors coasters away from having the best coaster lineup in Europe (Hyper & Woodie) and it seems silly that they've put the brakes on now. They currently don't have a lineup that scream 'let's go back'. They've built mediocre coasters for years (Stealth being the exception) and are now paying the price. The 30 million they're spending on the dark ride could have gone along way to completing the thrill park project;

-Refurb of Collosos (including new trains) approx 1 million.
-B&M Hyper, 15-18 Million.
-Woodie (RMC or GG) 7-10 million
-3rd Gen Intamin Drop Tower, 3-4 million.

That's 30-35 million roughly. Are you telling me that Thorpe would be better off with a single dark ride, or the above? I'm no theme park entrepreneur, but I'm pretty sure I know what'd give me the best return on investment.

 

[nadroJ]

Re: Thorpe Park construction?

Does anyone know if the proposed £30million includes the advertising budget too? Because whilst I would 100% agree with you there Darren I'm willing to bet that you'd be looking at more the £50million mark for that lot what with landscaping, construction, theming and then marketing on top of that.

But yh, totally agree that it's money down the drain, unless they come back with something really amazing. But let's face it, when was the last time Merlin truly wowed us and we weren't just faced with an 'oh, that was slightly better than I initially thought it would be' reaction (which I know is mine when it comes to most Merlin stuff).

 

[Nemesis Inferno]

Re: Thorpe Park construction?

£30 million based on Merlin projects will be the total cost for everything... So depending on IP, we'll probably only see something stupid like half of that actually spent on the attraction itself... [/pure guesswork]

A recent interview with Nick Varney says it all about Merlin's take on investment strategy, he calls their level of investment 'efficient', whilst the likes of Disney are 'extravagant'...

Now by that comparison, would people rather the more 'efficient' cost of Sub Terra, or the 'extravagance' of Tower of Terror?

 

[Ready_23]

Re: Thorpe Park construction?

Take it with a pinch of salt but I've heard the budget could be more than 30 million

 

[Nemesis Inferno]

Re: Thorpe Park construction?

To add onto the comment about what the public want, reading through the comments that were on the Get Surrey Facebook (because Nic commented on it), people reckon the park should have more things for families to do...

We all know how addicted Merlin are to public feedback and surveys deciding their plans...

Take it with a pinch of salt but I've heard the budget could be more than 30 million

Don't worry, everything you say is taken with a full bottle of salt...

 

[Ready_23]

Re: Thorpe Park construction?

That's fine, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Im glad you have taken the role of forum spokesperson though .

 

[Ian]

Re: Thorpe Park construction?

Who's to say that this dark ride will be family friendly anyway?

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Re: Thorpe Park construction?

Darren - I agree, I think. Well...

I'm in two minds.

On the one hand, the highly profitable parks with big coasters all have one thing in common - purchases from the best quality ride manufacturers. I think Dollywood and Busch are particularly strange, as I've said before, because even on busy days their coasters fail to gain long waits. I've been at Williamsburg when the paths are rammed, but the coasters have 15 min waits. Part of that is definitely down to their insane capacity, but I think part of it is because the parks target audience don't ride their coasters. I've only been Dolly at Christmas, but it seems like the majority of guests are frumpy older women, again, none of which ride anything - they just shop and eat and watch terrible Jesus shows. So why do the parks buy those rides? And not just a couple smaller thrill coasters, high budget, high quality monsters, their the signature attractions... I can only assume such rides are better for bringing boosts in attendance?

Now looking at Thorpe - who have comparable rides to both those parks, but lack overall landscape, environment, dining, shopping and family atmosphere. Colossus is definitely the parks long standing star IMO - but its arguably their lowest quality major coaster. Off the shelf, rough as ****, poorly maintained. But it's maintained a long queue and aura where the others have not so much... Why? I think its presence is the most powerful in its landscaping and structure layout, its concept strongest and the record understandable and its roughness read as intensity by the general public.

Busch Williamsburg's choice to get Verbolten I thought genius - a highly themed family coaster amongst their big abstract b&ms. But I don't get the new coaster, which is VERY cheap fairground in every way. I think they're making the mistake you highlight. What will separate them from KD if they continue down this cheap and cheerful path?


As for this ride's budget, yeah it'll be everything included. People don't realise just how expensive. Stuff like land clearing or marketing is. Its gotta pay for everyone's wages involved, don't forget. For all those cab journeys to the site. For all the contractors and external companies. Yeah.

 

[Darren B]

Re: Thorpe Park construction?

Who's to say that this dark ride will be family friendly anyway?

We don't think for a minute that this is going to themed to Rosie & Jim, but, it'll be much more age friendly than an RMC.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Re: Thorpe Park construction?

Rosie and Jim would be a great theme for merlin, old and out of touch with their audience.

 

[Dar]

Re: Thorpe Park construction?

Maybe they've teamed up with Frank and this is based on Rosie and Jim and the Ragdoll after they get addicted to crack?

 

[jj23w]

Re: Thorpe Park construction?

How big was vengeance? I have a slight suspicion that this may be vengeance.