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Schwarzkopf - hero, or hopeless?

For some reason I'll always see Schwarzkopf coasters as 'proper' rollercoasters. The classic style of a rollercoaster or even the basic layout of lifthill, drop, loop, station seems to have stemmed from his designs.

You really can't knock him for basically revolutionizing and setting into motion the whole damn industry!

And the the fact that I LOVE them <3
 
Well excuse me for expressing my opinion. Call me what you like but I am sticking to my words here. As it stands now, I am disappointed with Schwarzkopf coasters, plain and simple. As my coaster count increases, and I ride more of his coasters, my opinion may change.

I used to hate woodies with a passion. I would always skip over Grizzly, Hurler and Rebel Yell as shaky or painful. It was not until I rode Texas Giant in 2007 that I really started to enjoy the unique characteristics of wooden coasters. I really look forward to a future trip to Knoebels or Kennywood to experince classic out and back woodies.

As for Schwarzkopf, I will reiterate that I have not ridden a good creation of and when I do one day if that day come, I will retract my statement.
 
^^Don't listen to UC, KDGrizzilyistheworstwoodieever, he's still upset because someone dropped a house on his sister.
 
As has been said already, it really depends on whether you're looking at it from the perspective of what it meant at the time or how it stacks up now.

The big, looping, travelling coasters still stand up today; no question. I'm personally basing this on Bullet and Magnum Force which were built, and operated as, travelling coasters. They were both fantastic and still hold their own for me when compared with more modern, advanced coasters. In fact, I can't see any other shuttle coaster eclipsing Bullet for me anytime soon.

The difficulty comes with the older park models. I'm looking here at Revolution and Sooperdooperlooper. There's no denying the impact they had at the time, both on the public and the industry, but by today's standards they're crap. Sorry, but they are, and no amount of nostalgia or "respect" for what they represent is going to change that.

My issue with Schwartzkopf coasters is the automated "fantastic/amazing/wow/brilliant" response that we're supposed to come out with. I'm going to use Nessie Superrollercoaster at Hansa, which a bunch of us rode at the last Eurolive, as an example. It was (again, by modern standards) really not up to much. Apart from one moment of airtime, it was an incredibly dull ride, but nobody wanted to actually come out and say it (well, a few of us did to be fair) because of the reverance we're supposed to show towards that particular manufacturer.

Basically, what he did at the time was incredible, and some of those coasters are still incredible, but that doesn't mean that, as modern riders, we should have to feel that we have to automatically label a coaster as something that it isn't anymore.
 
Retarded business man perhaps, but obsessive perfectionist.

Hero.

However, that doesn't mean all their coasters are awesome.
 
I agree Gavin, I was one of the ones who was let down by that coaster. Had I not been looking forward to it I probably would have liked it more. I enjoyed the lap bar and not being pinned loop which is probably why I like these coasters. You do not just take a loop slow you go through them fast so you get negative and positive G which I really like.

I do think its an age thing though as growing up there was no B&M etc, the only coasters that inverted were Vekoma or his.
 
Yeah, Revolution and SooperDooperLooper are pretty crap. The loops are awesome, but, the rest sucks. Super is better but Revolution is DIRE.

The Shuttle loops <3 The coasters that have that weird almost quad-track are usually **** though (maybe not Mindbender).
 
I'm probably going to get flamed horridly, but I do disagree with one thing that has been said and I do believe is a wee bit off topic in this conversation, but I think UC said something about how without Schwarzkopf, we wouldn't be as far along as we are with roller coasters in general. Note that I'm not discrediting any of his contributions, but I don't agree with that statement.

Yes, he started a revolution in the coaster industry of making the first complete looping (and safe mind you) roller coaster; however Arrow opened up Corkscrew at Cedar Point just 8 days later with an inversion (I don't know if Anton had thought of or envisioned in some shape, way or form) that was completely different from a loop. Could he have had a rat in his company? Who possibly knows, but Arrow was also thinking of other means of changing the roller coaster industry as well. ****, not even 20 years later did B&M come out with the Zero-G Roll based off of watching airplanes go through their tricks and them wanting to recreate that.

Really though, if you want to get extremely technical, didn't all Anton Schwartzkopf do was just take the Loop the Loop design and idea and just think it out better and use a more conventional method of creating said element? All he really did was take someone else idea and tweak it to work, right? So for the element part, he was just lucky to have finished and opened the ride first. For the rest (not sure what else was stated, but I remember something about launching and free-weight methods), yes, I'll give him credit there, we might not be where we are now for the launch aspect of coasters, but it wouldn't be 10-20 years behind what we have now (Superman the Escape for example. Uses the LIM system), only 3-5 years, tops.

I would have to say a more correct statement would be that, without Schwartzkopf, we wouldn't have Gerstlauer or Mauer Sohne at the current time, not the entire evolutionary history of a roller coaster would be drastically changed.

THAT being said, now back onto topic. I've only ridden two Schwartzkopf in my time. Laser Loop (I don't really remember) and Mind Bender. It was an interesting experience, but it doesn't really live up to the modern day standard of what is expected from a roller coaster. Yes, they have aged magnificently well for them to still be in operation today from 30+ years ago, but I don't believe the coaster themselves deserve a near fanatical hero worship that I personally see them getting in this thread. Give credit where it is due, but don't get a boner over it.[/quote]
 
Hero.

I love the concept of Schwarzkopf coasters. They're simple, fun, and other than Revolution, unrestrictive. The shuttle loops are even pretty thrilling when going through those forceful loops backwards.

And some of his rides are just so crappy and old fashion that they're fun, like the Jet Star 2 and Wildcat models.

A Schwarzkopf has never been one of my top favorites, but I think I can safely say that I've at least enjoyed every one I've been on, which I don't think I can say for any other company. Yeah, Revolution sucks, but that's not Schwarzkopf's fault.
 
East Coast(er) General said:
FYI - A Schwarzkopf Wildcat is not the same as the Wildcat coaster at Hersheypark. :wink:
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I'm no idiot. I'm referring to the CP Wildcat. Thanks for saying it nicely, though.

And Ben, thanks for making me laugh. I needed that.

But on topic, I must say that where this stand is all a big question mark. It's like trying to figure out what would have happened if Napoleon or Genghis Khan or Hitler never existed. I mean, it is a bit more predictable, but we can't ever truly know how far behind we'd be without Schwarzkopf. You can look at the facts and make an educated guess somewhere in the ballpark, my best estimate is 5-10 years.

As stated earlier, for the two rides I've been on (which is not enough to make an accurate opinion, I know), I found the rides to be crap. I got a headache and by no means wanted to ride them again. The only other coaster I didn't want to ride again was Sidewinder at Hershey, and that's because I still think it gave me spine damage.

When comparing to the time that they were built... Well, my metaphor on things like this-
If you were looking at cars and had a high budget (money=time for this, go figure), would you take the brand spankin' new Lexus hybrid or a ratty worn down Oldsmobile? I'm pretty sure everyone in the world would take the Lexus and call the Oldsmobile a piece of crap. Nobody would bother to complement the Oldsmobile, you'd more or less say that it had its time but needs to move over to make room for new cars.
So that's how I view things when comparing old stuff to the stuff of its time vs. New stuff. It was amazing while it was around, but now we have better stuff and it's time to move over.

Of course, I'm just a 14 year old kid that knows diddly squat, and I was half asleep when I wrote this, so I'm probably totally wrong in every way according to some people.
 
See, I don't think your analogy is quite right there. Schwarzkopf is like a 1970's/80's BMW. Yes, their M series isn't anything compared to the same kind of super saloon we see today, but they were stand out cars in the day, and compared to a lot of stuff, they're still a high quality, exciting car to drive now.

Yes, like BMW they produced a lot of "quality" production "for the masses" items that certainly don't stand up today. You can't deny the quality of the workmanship and the fact that for the time, the stuff was cutting edge and a lot of it still stacks up today.

Nobody does a vertical loop as forceful as Schwarzkopf. There's very few drops in the world as fantastic as the psycho-drop on Lisebergbanana, or helices as strong as the last one on that ride. Even today, the weight drop launches are exciting. They're behind Intamin rockets, sure, but they still pack a punch and... They have aged much better than any rocket coaster ever will. Can you really see people loving Rita in over 30 years time? It'll be a bag of scrap.

I think the issue is probably a Europe/America thing. He had a lot more success with the travelling and custom rides over here than he did in the US (which is odd, as he struck his "world's firsts" over there).

I agree with Gavin 100% though (and not just on this point, with B&M and whoever). I don't think that there should be automatic reverence for a ride just because of some mystical reverence to its creator. I'm happy to stand by the fact I think the Jet Stars are poor, and the Wildcats. They're a good "did their job" coaster, but really nothing more than kiddy coasters. Sooperdooperlooper is the same. It's okay for a cheap thrill, but nothing outstanding... Though I will say I'd have that a million times over compared to an Arrow looper of the same kind of age.
 
Am I the only one here who's ridden Thriller - aka Texas Tornado, Zonga or Tsunami (as it is now known)?

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I think I first rode it in 1986 & then every year thereafter for a decade before it disappeared from the German fair circuit. For 3 years it reigned supreme as the top coaster on the circuit until Olympia Looping showed up.
There was simply nothing like either of them at the time (still isn't, actually) & they were the main reason I went to SFGAdv to ride GASM, which didn't come close but was the only thing I could ride in the states that reminded me of my favorite coasters. Yes, I'm an old fart who grew up riding Schwarzkopf classics, but there's really only one answer if you have to choose between hero or hopeless.
 
It's now at the Isla San Marcos Parque Temático fair which runs for a month every April through May in Aguascalientes, Mexico.
 
^Shame Premier raped it :(

I'd also just like to add that Knightmare is one of this country's best coasters...
 
furie said:
I'm happy to stand by the fact I think the Jet Stars are poor, and the Wildcats. They're a good "did their job" coaster, but really nothing more than kiddy coasters.
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I'll agree with you on the "kiddie coasters that do their job" point, but one of the things I do like about Schwarzkopf is that even the Jetstar and Wildcat I've ridden were good kiddie coasters. They stand up a hell of a lot better than most other kiddie coasters I've ridden.

furie said:
Sooperdooperlooper is the same. It's okay for a cheap thrill, but nothing outstanding... Though I will say I'd have that a million times over compared to an Arrow looper of the same kind of age.
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Agreed. Sooperdooperlooper was nothing special, but was at least fun.

Which brings me back to my original point. I've not ridden many Schwarzkopfs over the years, but the ones I have been on range from at least passable up to pretty damn good - and other than a single ride on Laser, I don't think I've ridden any of the ones that are actually considered to be really good yet.
 
^Ahh, that sucks. As for shuttle loops, I've ridden Monte and SFKK's Greezed Lightnin', and Montezooma's Revenge is miles faster, more forceful, and just overall better. And from what I've heard, most of the shuttle loops are more like Greezed Lightnin' and fairly tame... so it's a real shame you missed out on one of the better ones!

Not to make you jealous or anything.
 
I got on Thunder Looper at Alton which was just fantastic :). It just broke down a lot and the ride ops were always having to push it back into the station. Now days they probably would not be allowed to do that due to H&S.
 
^The difference is that Monte has a flywheel catapult system, whereas Lightnin' (& Thunder Looper) uses a weight drop.
The flywheel uses a 6 ton flywheel in a machine room in front of the loop. The flywheel spins to 1044rpm & then engages a 4:1 speed reducer. This turns a drive pulley & propels the train via a cable. The weight drop uses a 40 ton weight in a tower at the end of the ride & it connects to a pulley system which triples the speed of the drop, placing over 13 tons of force on the train. Hope that explains it clearly enough.
Thanks to furie for peaking my interest in this a few years ago. :wink:
 
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