Project Exodus at Thorpe Park; Current Layout (Mack) or Alternative Layout (Likely B&M)?

[Matt N]

Hi guys. Project Exodus, the upcoming hyper coaster at Thorpe Park, was revealed last December, and since then, it has well and truly divided opinion. I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a starkly polarising new ride announcement; whereas people mostly seem to be fairly united on ride announcements, this one is well and truly splitting the community in two. I’ve heard comments on the whole continuum of opinions about it; comments I can remember include:

• “It will definitely be one of the best coasters in the world”
• “It looks like Icon, where it just twists about without really knowing what it’s doing and ends up achieving nothing particularly well”
• “Definitely the best coaster in the UK; it looks truly elite”
• “It looks like a souped up Sky Rocket II”
• “This will be the UK’s Steel Vengeance moment; it looks truly world class”
• “It does none of the things that make hyper coasters good. It has no long layout and no airtime hills”
• “This looks nuts, and will get enthusiasts around the world looking at the UK in jealousy”
• “I can’t believe its most distinguishing feature will be its insanely long brake run; where’s the second half of the ride?”
• “It looks like Lech Coaster on crack; this will be truly insane”
• “Over time, we’ve determined what makes rides good. This ride doesn’t appear to do many of them within its short layout.”
• “The elements on this look insane”
• “It’s too short and has too many bits that don’t seem to offer anything”

I could reel off every single contradicting comment I’ve ever seen about the ride, but my basic point is; Exodus has been incredibly divisive, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen a more marmite investment in all of my years as an enthusiast.

Another interesting element was added into the mix when the full planning application went in in March, and the park revealed an alternative layout proposal that looked an awful lot like a B&M Hyper Coaster. This layout looked very different to the final proposal from Mack, but it had the same base aim; to become the UK’s tallest roller coaster.

The interesting thing I noticed was that many of the key detractors of the current Project Exodus seemed a lot more interested in the alternative layout, whereas many of the current proposal’s key defenders seemed very apathetic towards it, and glad that Thorpe Park opted for the Mack Hyper like they did instead of going for the B&M Hyper.

So with the current layout and the alternative layout seeming to divide opinion in terms of which one people would have preferred, I’d be keen to know; are you on Team Mack (the current layout) or Team B&M (the alternative layout)? Which one would have been your choice had you been in charge of picking the layout?

To help you decide, here are some brilliant NL2 recreations of both layouts by Jamie Rogers. This should help those who are unsure of what I’m talking about.

Current Layout (Mack Hyper):

Alternative Layout (B&M Hyper):

Personally, I’m on Team B&M, and would vote for the Alternative Layout.

Perhaps controversially; having ridden Silver Star in April and had my love for the B&M Hyper ride type confirmed, I think I prefer the look of the B&M proposal to the ride we’re getting based on those recreations.

To me, it looks to have far more of an overt airtime focus than the Exodus we’re getting (while I’m sure Exodus will have airtime, don’t get me wrong, and quite strong airtime at that, I’d be hesitant to call it an overtly airtime-centred layout based on what we know), which would have fitted the UK beautifully, in my view (particularly seeing as the country lacks sustained airtime like B&M Hypers offer far more than it lacks brief airtime, in my view).

I also feel that the B&M proposal would have filled more of a gap within Thorpe Park’s lineup; a non-inverting, rerideable thrill coaster in the vein of a B&M Hyper Coaster is something that Thorpe and arguably the UK industry as a whole lacks at present, and Thorpe has no non-inverting thrill coaster aside from Stealth, whereas Exodus, as brilliant as it looks, will ultimately be another variation on a sit-down looping coaster. Granted, I’d imagine it’ll be quite a different variation on this trope to Thorpe’s other rides, but it will be a sit-down looping coaster with its elements almost predominantly consisting of inversions, like many of Thorpe’s other rides, all the same. The sit down looper trope is not exactly uncommon within Thorpe and the UK, which is something that Exodus can’t escape regardless of how unique its take on this trope may be.

I apologise if this makes me come across as “bitter that my prediction was wrong” or whatever, and I don’t want to imply that I’m not grateful for the ride we’re getting or don’t think it looks great (I think Exodus has an awesome-looking layout, and it’s certainly very unique!), but having now seen this alternative proposal, I do personally think it looks more my cup of tea than the Exodus being built. When I came off Silver Star in April, I’ll admit I did think “wouldn’t it have been great if Thorpe was getting something like this?” (although as I said above, that’s not to say that the Exodus we’re getting doesn’t look great; I’m very excited for it!), and I actually think the proposed B&M Hyper layout looks pretty neat, myself!

But which layout do you prefer the look of? And what are your thoughts on Exodus in general? I’d be very keen to know!

 

[ScottLann]

I much prefer the Mack layout.

As some others had mentioned previously, a lot of the B&M Hypers already have very similar elements on their layouts and don't really do anything 'special' (I never thought I'd say this as my top 2 coasters happen to be B&M Hypers ). Yes, they do have great airtime and that's the main reason I love them so much....but with his in mind, whilst the Mack may not be the longest layout, it certainly looks like it will deliver some elements that no other Mack hyper (or dare I say, any hyper) has ever done before.

When it comes to worrying about track length, I always look at the likes of Oblivion and Stealth. They are super short rides yet pack a punch and tend to be well liked amongst the general public and enthusiasts. So having a coaster that is short but still longer than both of the above, happens to have lap bars, be taller, feature airtime and have the weirdest kinds of elements, I'm all for it!

Speaking of which....are there any further developments with the plans/approvals on Project Exodus? (I understand this will be suited for the News/Rumours topic)

 

[Matt N]

I much prefer the Mack layout.

As some others had mentioned previously, a lot of the B&M Hypers already have very similar elements on their layouts and don't really do anything 'special' (I never thought I'd say this as my top 2 coasters happen to be B&M Hypers ). Yes, they do have great airtime and that's the main reason I love them so much....but with his in mind, whilst the Mack may not be the longest layout, it certainly looks like it will deliver some elements that no other Mack hyper (or dare I say, any hyper) has ever done before.

When it comes to worrying about track length, I always look at the likes of Oblivion and Stealth. They are super short rides yet pack a punch and tend to be well liked amongst the general public and enthusiasts. So having a coaster that is short but still longer than both of the above, happens to have lap bars, be taller, feature airtime and have the weirdest kinds of elements, I'm all for it!

Speaking of which....are there any further developments with the plans/approvals on Project Exodus? (I understand this will be suited for the News/Rumours topic)

Fair enough! I think uniqueness is probably one of Exodus’ biggest trump cards compared to the B&M proposal, and some of those elements do admittedly look awesome!

Don’t get me wrong, I would hardly call myself an Exodus hater, or a detractor of the Mack layout. I think it looks like it will be a brilliant ride, I think they’ve done a cracking job with the layout within that tight space, and I will definitely reserve full judgement on it until it opens, but from what I’ve seen of both proposals, the B&M one appears slightly more my cup of tea for the reasons I explained above.

As for developments; I haven’t heard of any new updates on it. I know Thorpe updated their application to address the concerns of the Environment Agency, but other than that, I don’t know of anything new, I’m afraid.

 

[Rob Coasters]

Mackprodukt.

It will definitely be one of the best coasters in the world

This is a point that I can get behind, but I can't help but think of what "one of the best" means. What's the best coaster that we think this has the potential to outrank? It's going to be a screamingly obvious #1 for me though but admittedly that's not exactly difficult of a decision to make.

It looks like Icon, where it just twists about without really knowing what it’s doing and ends up achieving nothing particularly well

This comparison reminds me heavily of the "apples versus oranges" phrase which means 'when two things are vaguely similar but are far too different to be compared to each other'. Where exactly does Exodus 'twist about not knowing what it's doing?' Because it feels like Exodus is a coaster where every single element knows exactly what it's doing and they all have distinct and defined purposes. If anything Icon is the one that twists about, especially in the final turns leading into the brakes. But that's kind of Icon's thing I would argue and there's nothing wrong with that, but it definitely does fizzle out towards the end.

Definitely the best coaster in the UK; it looks truly elite

Yep. No competition. None at all.

It looks like a souped up Sky Rocket II

?

This will be the UK’s Steel Vengeance moment; it looks truly world class

Agreed.

It does none of the things that make hyper coasters good. It has no long layout and no airtime hills

The skepticism of Mack's idea may be stemming from the fact that this isn't really something we've seen before. Often with an 'out there' layout people tend to be pretty quick to throw shade on it because it's not something they're used to seeing, and more often than not people want to beeline it to "that means it sucks!". There will never be innovation if no one's brave enough to leave their comfort zone to provide the world with something new, and while this "something new" never has a 100% chance of working, at least they tried.

A lot of people think that the definition of 'airtime' is 'going up into the sky out of your seat'. But that's an old definition now. All of Exodus's elements will have you out of your seat whether it's upwards sideways or upside down.

If the coaster was indeed longer, then how long before you start all the run-of-the-mill elements that Exodus wants nothing to do with? All of the elements do what they can to be extremely unique and to make every single one hit. Quality over quantity.

This looks nuts, and will get enthusiasts around the world looking at the UK in jealousy

I've seen multiple well travelled Americans immediately start planning a Thorpe 2024 trip after seeing Mackxodus, and they've said they wouldn't have done it if it was B&M.

I can’t believe its most distinguishing feature will be its insanely long brake run; where’s the second half of the ride?

I can't believe Top Thrill Dragster/Kingda Ka/Fury 325/Orion/Red Force/Racer/Leviathan's most distinguishing feature will be it's insanely long brake run; where's the second half of the ride?

It looks like Lech Coaster on crack; this will be truly insane

I wouldn't say this has many similarities to Lech Coaster, except maybe the twisted drop and the setting near a lake, but if I'm missing something here do let me know!

Over time, we’ve determined what makes rides good. This ride doesn’t appear to do many of them within its short layout

"Stop making innovations."

The final point i haven't mentioned yet is the questioning of why it has inversions, but while I have advocated for it to have none before the ride's plans were released, that's honestly gone straight out of the window for me. And that's where I say to the B&Mers "alright... we have our differences but you have a point" as Thorpe does have a bit of an inversion megaworld thing going on with their rides and it is about time that we got another coaster that has a solid upside down count of zero, but with just how damn good Mackxodus looks, I think I can forgive Thorpe this time but I understand those who didn't want any at all.

However, the British General Public seems to have a permanent irrational fear of going upside down without a shoulder harness, and parks are starting to finally loosen things up with building more and more coasters that invert with "just" a lap bar. Icon, SIK, Southport's Zamp Thunderbolt, and now Exodus will (continue to) set a good example that these rides are indeed safe.

Arguably the popularity of Mack's Exodus could also stem from what people think of RMC's funkiness which Matt discussed in another thread, which not everyone enjoys to the fullest extent, though with Exodus they seem to be more drawn out and with far better restraints so hopefully that helps things.

@Matt N - I get you when you say it doesn't exactly look like your cup of tea, as while Exodus isn't as long as other hypers, it's going to pack a LOT of punch into that time and admittedly not everyone is into that! Some want crazy ejector, others want glorious floater. I do indeed agree that we need more traditional airtime based coasters with no inversions in the UK as this continues to be a gap. In 2012 Swarm gained a bit of a negative reputation in its first years for being a bit lacking on the intensity scale, and I think Thorpe perhaps used this reasoning to go for Mack. In the end, I do hope that your dreams of another major inversionless airtime based coaster in the UK are fulfilled one day.

But could this whole thing be linked back to apples and oranges? Ultimately this is just an example of personal preference, and what people do and don't look for in a coaster. Both coasters are for EXTREMELY different audiences.

I'm not against anyone who advocates for the B&M as I perfectly understand the reasons for why they wanted to see it, in fact I heavily advocated for the B&M hyper before I saw the Mack, and again everyone's tastes in coasters are different! Instead this reply's more questioning the reasons against the Mack, but again the whole 'inversions' thing is a point to be made.

 

[Matt N]

Mackprodukt.


This is a point that I can get behind, but I can't help but think of what "one of the best" means. What's the best coaster that we think this has the potential to outrank? It's going to be a screamingly obvious #1 for me though but admittedly that's not exactly difficult of a decision to make.



This comparison reminds me heavily of the "apples versus oranges" phrase which means 'when two things are vaguely similar but are far too different to be compared to each other'. Where exactly does Exodus 'twist about not knowing what it's doing?' Because it feels like Exodus is a coaster where every single element knows exactly what it's doing and they all have distinct and defined purposes. If anything Icon is the one that twists about, especially in the final turns leading into the brakes. But that's kind of Icon's thing I would argue and there's nothing wrong with that, but it definitely does fizzle out towards the end.


Yep. No competition. None at all.


?


Agreed.


The skepticism of Mack's idea may be stemming from the fact that this isn't really something we've seen before. Often with an 'out there' layout people tend to be pretty quick to throw shade on it because it's not something they're used to seeing, and more often than not people want to beeline it to "that means it sucks!". There will never be innovation if no one's brave enough to leave their comfort zone to provide the world with something new, and while this "something new" never has a 100% chance of working, at least they tried.

A lot of people think that the definition of 'airtime' is 'going up into the sky out of your seat'. But that's an old definition now. All of Exodus's elements will have you out of your seat whether it's upwards sideways or upside down.

If the coaster was indeed longer, then how long before you start all the run-of-the-mill elements that Exodus wants nothing to do with? All of the elements do what they can to be extremely unique and to make every single one hit. Quality over quantity.


I've seen multiple well travelled Americans immediately start planning a Thorpe 2024 trip after seeing Mackxodus, and they've said they wouldn't have done it if it was B&M.


I can't believe Top Thrill Dragster/Kingda Ka/Fury 325/Orion/Red Force/Racer/Leviathan's most distinguishing feature will be it's insanely long brake run; where's the second half of the ride?


I wouldn't say this has many similarities to Lech Coaster, except maybe the twisted drop and the setting near a lake, but if I'm missing something here do let me know!


"Stop making innovations."

The final point i haven't mentioned yet is the questioning of why it has inversions, but while I have advocated for it to have none before the ride's plans were released, that's honestly gone straight out of the window for me. And that's where I say to the B&Mers "alright... we have our differences but you have a point" as Thorpe does have a bit of an inversion megaworld thing going on with their rides and it is about time that we got another coaster that has a solid upside down count of zero, but with just how damn good Mackxodus looks, I think I can forgive Thorpe this time but I understand those who didn't want any at all.

However, the British General Public seems to have a permanent irrational fear of going upside down without a shoulder harness, and parks are starting to finally loosen things up with building more and more coasters that invert with "just" a lap bar. Icon, SIK, Southport's Zamp Thunderbolt, and now Exodus will (continue to) set a good example that these rides are indeed safe.

Arguably the popularity of Mack's Exodus could also stem from what people think of RMC's funkiness which Matt discussed in another thread, which not everyone enjoys to the fullest extent, though with Exodus they seem to be more drawn out and with far better restraints so hopefully that helps things.

@Matt N - I get you when you say it doesn't exactly look like your cup of tea, as while Exodus isn't as long as other hypers, it's going to pack a LOT of punch into that time and admittedly not everyone is into that! Some want crazy ejector, others want glorious floater. I do indeed agree that we need more traditional airtime based coasters with no inversions in the UK as this continues to be a gap. In 2012 Swarm gained a bit of a negative reputation in its first years for being a bit lacking on the intensity scale, and I think Thorpe perhaps used this reasoning to go for Mack. In the end, I do hope that your dreams of another major inversionless airtime based coaster in the UK are fulfilled one day.

But could this whole thing be linked back to apples and oranges? Ultimately this is just an example of personal preference, and what people do and don't look for in a coaster. Both coasters are for EXTREMELY different audiences.

I'm not against anyone who advocates for the B&M as I perfectly understand the reasons for why they wanted to see it, in fact I heavily advocated for the B&M hyper before I saw the Mack, and again everyone's tastes in coasters are different! Instead this reply's more questioning the reasons against the Mack, but again the whole 'inversions' thing is a point to be made.

You’ve raised some very valid points, and I don’t disagree with many of them.

For clarity, the comments in my opening post are not necessarily opinions I share; I was literally just trying to grab a load of contradicting opinions on Exodus and plonk them in for effect to show the raw split in opinion!

For me, I think I say that Exodus doesn’t appear as much my cup of tea as the B&M Hyper does because I was really hopeful for a fun, effortlessly rerideable coaster where airtime would be the main event. Exodus isn’t really that, whereas the B&M Hyper Coaster looks like it would have fulfilled that brief very well. I’m sure that Exodus will have airtime in places, and it will probably be looked upon as one of the UK’s strongest coasters for it, but it doesn’t really look like the ride’s principal focus to me; Exodus looks to bear more of a resemblance to other UK coasters with airtime in that the airtime it has is more of a side dish that occurs by coincidence than the main event that the ride focuses on. Exodus looks more focused on intensity and wacky manoeuvres in weird directions. With this in mind, I dare say that I would be a fair amount happier with Exodus if the UK already had a proper airtime machine. I won’t deny that Exodus’ ride layout itself does look really excellent, but in context, it does feel to me like a slight missed opportunity to go all out with a true airtime machine.

To me, inverted negatives or negatives in weird positions, while they can be really good fun and phenomenally enjoyable, don’t quite hit like a good straight airtime hill. That could be because I haven’t ridden an RMC or equivalent ride that really goes to town with the negatives in weird positions trope, but I have done coasters with negative g-forces exerted upon riders in ways that aren’t straight airtime hills or drops, and that’s my current opinion based on those.

A coaster I’ve ridden that I think Exodus could feel quite similar to in some regards is Blue Fire at Europa Park. Not because it’s a Mack, but because Blue Fire, like Exodus appears to, has the bulk of its primary negative g-forces exerted upon riders through inverting them, and some of its elements could bear a resemblance to certain elements on Exodus in terms of how they ride. For instance, Blue Fire has a big vertical loop, which has some nice hangtime at the top. I could see Exodus’ 3rd inversion (the dive loop before the splashdown) riding similarly. Blue Fire also has the last heartline roll at the end, which throws riders out of the seat with some very strong negative g-forces. I could see Exodus’ 2nd inversion (the roll out of the overbank) riding similarly. For me, while these elements on Blue Fire are very fun and enjoyable, and definitely elements I thoroughly enjoyed, they don’t quite hit the raw bliss of a straight airtime hill. While I’ll digress that Blue Fire is a great, great ride, and its floaty inversions containing negative g’s were its strongest elements, in my opinion, it didn’t hold a candle to Silver Star on the other side of the park for me.

For clarity, I’m not against the Mack by any means. I think Exodus looks brilliant, it looks very original, and some of its elements could ride excellently; I thoroughly look forward to riding it! However, I feel that the B&M proposal would have filled more of a discernible gap within both Thorpe Park and the UK coaster industry, and from a slightly selfish point of view, it also looks as though it would have fitted my personal taste in coasters a bit more. I do absolutely love B&M Hyper Coasters!

 

[Crazycoaster]

I’d be happy with the layout as a first half. But we are missing a series of bunny hops, or a velocicoaster rose bowl, or just something that isn’t a big old water brake after the third element. 4 elements is not enough to make a world class coaster. What is the point in building such a tall coaster for it to do nothing.

 

[Hixee]

@Crazycoaster is right here.

I'd have preferred a full Mack over a full B&M, but I'd have preferred a full B&M over half a Mack.

 

[Rob Coasters]

You’ve raised some very valid points, and I don’t disagree with many of them.

For clarity, the comments in my opening post are not necessarily opinions I share; I was literally just trying to grab a load of contradicting opinions on Exodus and plonk them in for effect to show the raw split in opinion!

For me, I think I say that Exodus doesn’t appear as much my cup of tea as the B&M Hyper does because I was really hopeful for a fun, effortlessly rerideable coaster where airtime would be the main event. Exodus isn’t really that, whereas the B&M Hyper Coaster looks like it would have fulfilled that brief very well. I’m sure that Exodus will have airtime in places, and it will probably be looked upon as one of the UK’s strongest coasters for it, but it doesn’t really look like the ride’s principal focus to me; Exodus looks to bear more of a resemblance to other UK coasters with airtime in that the airtime it has is more of a side dish that occurs by coincidence than the main event that the ride focuses on. Exodus looks more focused on intensity and wacky manoeuvres in weird directions. With this in mind, I dare say that I would be a fair amount happier with Exodus if the UK already had a proper airtime machine. I won’t deny that Exodus’ ride layout itself does look really excellent, but in context, it does feel to me like a slight missed opportunity to go all out with a true airtime machine.

To me, inverted negatives or negatives in weird positions, while they can be really good fun and phenomenally enjoyable, don’t quite hit like a good straight airtime hill. That could be because I haven’t ridden an RMC or equivalent ride that really goes to town with the negatives in weird positions trope, but I have done coasters with negative g-forces exerted upon riders in ways that aren’t straight airtime hills or drops, and that’s my current opinion based on those.

A coaster I’ve ridden that I think Exodus could feel quite similar to in some regards is Blue Fire at Europa Park. Not because it’s a Mack, but because Blue Fire, like Exodus appears to, has the bulk of its primary negative g-forces exerted upon riders through inverting them, and some of its elements could bear a resemblance to certain elements on Exodus in terms of how they ride. For instance, Blue Fire has a big vertical loop, which has some nice hangtime at the top. I could see Exodus’ 3rd inversion (the dive loop before the splashdown) riding similarly. Blue Fire also has the last heartline roll at the end, which throws riders out of the seat with some very strong negative g-forces. I could see Exodus’ 2nd inversion (the roll out of the overbank) riding similarly. For me, while these elements on Blue Fire are very fun and enjoyable, and definitely elements I thoroughly enjoyed, they don’t quite hit the raw bliss of a straight airtime hill. While I’ll digress that Blue Fire is a great, great ride, and its floaty inversions containing negative g’s were its strongest elements, in my opinion, it didn’t hold a candle to Silver Star on the other side of the park for me.

For clarity, I’m not against the Mack by any means. I think Exodus looks brilliant, it looks very original, and some of its elements could ride excellently; I thoroughly look forward to riding it! However, I feel that the B&M proposal would have filled more of a discernible gap within both Thorpe Park and the UK coaster industry, and from a slightly selfish point of view, it also looks as though it would have fitted my personal taste in coasters a bit more. I do absolutely love B&M Hyper Coasters!

You do make some extremely good points here, and now part of me wishes that they did go with the B&M! Admittedly my ride portfolio pales in comparison to yours, who knows maybe on my visit to Europapark I'll leave there thinking "they should've gotten the B&M" indeed.

Both concepts are starting to grow on me a lot more now, though I still think the Mack wins me over but admittedly by a bit less than what I originally thought!

 

[Howie]

I'm team B&M. I yearn for a good B&M hyper in the UK. I yearn for there to be more than 2 of 'em in the whole of Europe to be honest. Emphasis on the word 'good' though - I don't want a sh** one, I don't want Raging Bull - I'd want it to be an enormous one, a Shambhala beater, or not at all.
Like Hixee said, if this was a full Mack rather than half a Mack I'd probably be team Mack, but as it's half a Mack I'm still team B&M.
What really grieves me is that this was probably the UK's only realistic chance of ever getting a B&M hyper, and now you mention it I can't really see any other park in Europe getting one anytime soon either. This makes me sad. We were so close.

 

[Rob Coasters]

After giving it another proper think, I would've gone for the B&M Hyper if that coaster type wasn't such a prevalent model elsewhere.

 

[Melons]

Gotta go with Mack here. The B&M Hyper doesn't look all that interesting, why bother when you can go to Spain or Germany to ride a decent Hyper. The Mack layout looks thrilling and unique, it may look on the slightly shorter side but personally I don't mind short rides if they're enjoyable.

 

[Nicky Borrill]

Are people still beating this drum?

Sorry, but I'd take almost any other Hyper over a B&M, for reasons that have been mentioned way too many times already. But most of all, because there are 2 already here in Europe that I can ride almost any time I want to, and there isn't enough difference between one layout and another.

Good, even great rides, but I'd prefer something 'different.'

 

[Matt N]

Are people still beating this drum?

Sorry, but I'd take almost any other Hyper over a B&M, for reasons that have been mentioned way too many times already. But most of all, because there are 2 already here in Europe that I can ride almost any time I want to, and there isn't enough difference between one layout and another.

Good, even great rides, but I'd prefer something 'different.'

Sorry, Nicky… I just thought it would be an interesting discussion point given that Exodus in the form we’re getting still appears to divide opinion quite substantially, as does whether the park made the right call building the Mack or whether they should have built the B&M instead. But if you’d prefer, I can stop discussing the issue and ask the mods to lock the topic.

On a separate aside, I’ve heard multiple people say something along the lines of “why build a B&M Hyper when two already exist in Spain and Germany that we can ride whenever we want?”.

My personal counter argument to that would be; most Thorpe Park guests won’t be going to Spain or Germany to ride Shambhala or Silver Star. And if you take what Exodus does in its most basic sense, then I’d argue that the B&M Hyper would have filled far more of a gap within both Thorpe Park and the wider UK coaster lineup than the ride being built.

I know that’s a very bold statement, but my reasoning for saying that is that Exodus, even though it looks great, is ultimately quite similar in basic design philosophy to Thorpe Park’s other coasters and many other coasters that exist in the UK; the sit down looper is not exactly an uncommon trope within Thorpe Park or the wider UK theme park industry. Colossus follows a very similar trope (sit down looper) in the same park, and I’ve also heard it said that Exodus has a broadly similar layout to the outdoor section of Saw, but on a much grander scale. In essence, Exodus does pretty similar things to most of Thorpe Park’s other coasters and a number of other UK coasters, but on a much bigger scale. Yes, you could argue until the cows come home about how Exodus will be a very unique take on this idea, but even if it ends up being the literal holy grail of sit down looping coasters, you ultimately cannot escape the fact that it is a sit down looping coaster in a park and country filled with sit down looping coasters, and that it doesn’t appear to have the greatest airtime focus (I know some of the inversions will likely have negative g’s, but the ride appears to have a profound lack of straight airtime moments).

By comparison, I’d argue that the B&M Hyper Coaster would have been a far greater breath of fresh air for both Thorpe Park and the wider UK industry. Yes, it would have been less unique on the world stage than the Mack, but nothing currently exists within the UK that is overly similar to a B&M Hyper; it would fill the commonly cited gap of “airtime machine”, and it would also give Thorpe Park a non-inverting thrill coaster (which it currently lacks aside from Stealth, which is less than 10 seconds long). Whether you like B&M Hypers or not, it would undeniably have been very, very different to every other coaster within both Thorpe Park and the UK. Sit down loopers are very abundant in this country, but major airtime machines are considerably lacking, and it takes a fair bit of umming and ahhing to answer the question of “which UK coaster has the best airtime?”, as nothing in this country is overly focused on airtime. A B&M Hyper would have filled the gap of a major airtime machine within both Thorpe Park and Britain at large, whereas I don’t see Exodus filling a clear gap in quite the same way.

I don’t mean to come across “bitter that my prediction was wrong” or as “having tunnel vision”, so I apologise if I do, but that’s just my own opinion. I hope my argument makes sense. Don’t read me wrong, I’m sure Exodus will be a brilliant ride that I’ll really enjoy, but I think the B&M proposal would have been more my cup of tea for numerous reasons.

 

[Howie]

I'm with Matt on this one. My only caveat would be that the B&M be one of the jumbo ones, like,  properly enormous - taller than Shambhala and longer than Silver Star with at least one unique-ish element to make the layout a wee bit more interesting. And no trims. Okay so that's 3 caveats, but you get the idea.
Hell, if I was in charge I'd even consider going full giga and taking the height and length records from Fury 325!
One of those piddly little ones like Candymonium or Mako, which let's face it, this would probably have ended up being, would not cut it for me. I'd want an absolute monster. Go big or go home innit. Yeah yeah I know - obviously never gonna happen- so in that respect I'm kinda glad we're getting something different. I just wish the Mack layout was longer, that's all.

 

[Matt N]

I'm with Matt on this one. My only caveat would be that the B&M be one of the jumbo ones, like,  properly enormous - taller than Shambhala and longer than Silver Star with at least one unique-ish element to make the layout a wee bit more interesting. And no trims. Okay so that's 3 caveats, but you get the idea.
Hell, if I was in charge I'd even consider going full giga and taking the height and length records from Fury 325!
One of those piddly little ones like Candymonium or Mako, which let's face it, this would probably have ended up being, would not cut it for me. I'd want an absolute monster. Go big or go home innit. Yeah yeah I know - obviously never gonna happen- so in that respect I'm kinda glad we're getting something different. I just wish the Mack layout was longer, that's all.

Oh yes, a Shambhala size ride at Thorpe would have been epic!

But even the “piddly little ones” are just as fun, in my opinion; personally, I actually enjoyed Mako slightly more than Silver Star (although there was very little in it; Mako is my #1 and SS is my #2, and both rides were absolutely phenomenal!), so I would have valued one of those just as much! And besides, I’m assuming that Thorpe’s B&M Hyper would have been at least 236ft to get that all important UK height record, so it would hardly have been pint sized!

To be honest, I’ll digress that the plot Exodus is being built upon probably wasn’t the best place for a B&M Hyper to be built; they require long, straight plots of land, whereas Old Town/the Logger’s Leap area is a lot more confined. I think a B&M would have been far better had they used the island next to Swarm instead; it would have had lots of space for a nice out and back layout.

 

[Nicky Borrill]

Sorry, Nicky… I just thought it would be an interesting discussion point given that Exodus in the form we’re getting still appears to divide opinion quite substantially, as does whether the park made the right call building the Mack or whether they should have built the B&M instead. But if you’d prefer, I can stop discussing the issue and ask the mods to lock the topic.

On a separate aside, I’ve heard multiple people say something along the lines of “why build a B&M Hyper when two already exist in Spain and Germany that we can ride whenever we want?”.

My personal counter argument to that would be; most Thorpe Park guests won’t be going to Spain or Germany to ride Shambhala or Silver Star. And if you take what Exodus does in its most basic sense, then I’d argue that the B&M Hyper would have filled far more of a gap within both Thorpe Park and the wider UK coaster lineup than the ride being built.

I know that’s a very bold statement, but my reasoning for saying that is that Exodus, even though it looks great, is ultimately quite similar in basic design philosophy to Thorpe Park’s other coasters and many other coasters that exist in the UK; the sit down looper is not exactly an uncommon trope within Thorpe Park or the wider UK theme park industry. Colossus follows a very similar trope (sit down looper) in the same park, and I’ve also heard it said that Exodus has a broadly similar layout to the outdoor section of Saw, but on a much grander scale. In essence, Exodus does pretty similar things to most of Thorpe Park’s other coasters and a number of other UK coasters, but on a much bigger scale. Yes, you could argue until the cows come home about how Exodus will be a very unique take on this idea, but even if it ends up being the literal holy grail of sit down looping coasters, you ultimately cannot escape the fact that it is a sit down looping coaster in a park and country filled with sit down looping coasters, and that it doesn’t appear to have the greatest airtime focus (I know some of the inversions will likely have negative g’s, but the ride appears to have a profound lack of straight airtime moments).

By comparison, I’d argue that the B&M Hyper Coaster would have been a far greater breath of fresh air for both Thorpe Park and the wider UK industry. Yes, it would have been less unique on the world stage than the Mack, but nothing currently exists within the UK that is overly similar to a B&M Hyper; it would fill the commonly cited gap of “airtime machine”, and it would also give Thorpe Park a non-inverting thrill coaster (which it currently lacks aside from Stealth, which is less than 10 seconds long). Whether you like B&M Hypers or not, it would undeniably have been very, very different to every other coaster within both Thorpe Park and the UK. Sit down loopers are very abundant in this country, but major airtime machines are considerably lacking, and it takes a fair bit of umming and ahhing to answer the question of “which UK coaster has the best airtime?”, as nothing in this country is overly focused on airtime. A B&M Hyper would have filled the gap of a major airtime machine within both Thorpe Park and Britain at large, whereas I don’t see Exodus filling a clear gap in quite the same way.

I don’t mean to come across “bitter that my prediction was wrong” or as “having tunnel vision”, so I apologise if I do, but that’s just my own opinion. I hope my argument makes sense. Don’t read me wrong, I’m sure Exodus will be a brilliant ride that I’ll really enjoy, but I think the B&M proposal would have been more my cup of tea for numerous reasons.

Firstly, you know you don't have to apologise, and can talk about whatever you want to talk about... If I really didn't like it, I didn't have to reply. It was a tongue in cheek joke mate, that's all.

I don't think you actually believe this is anything like any of Thorpe's coasters in any way other than the fact 'it has inversions.' It's certainly nothing like Saw. If you're going to group coasters into categories in this way... Then a B&M hyper has no inversions, therefore it's very similar to other coasters at Thorpe, and plenty more in the UK. We even have coasters over 200ft that do not invert. One of them in the same park!!! You know what we don't have? A 200ft coaster that inverts AND has airtime moments, possibly even ejector. Hell, we don't have many ejector airtime moments in the UK full stop.

Also, you have to remember, we're not GP, you're asking enthusiasts their opinion. And I'm answering it from my own personal perspective. Why would I care what is best for Joe Bloggs? Or for Thorpe's lineup? I look at the coasters within my reach, not just within each park. I can, and do, travel to ride coasters, and this will be one of the most unique coasters in Europe imo, much more than just another B&M.

 

[Matt N]

I don't think you actually believe this is anything like any of Thorpe's coasters in any way other than the fact 'it has inversions.' It's certainly nothing like Saw. If you're going to group coasters into categories in this way... Then a B&M hyper has no inversions, therefore it's very similar to other coasters at Thorpe, and plenty more in the UK. We even have coasters over 200ft that do not invert. One of them in the same park!!! You know what we don't have? A 200ft coaster that inverts AND has airtime moments, possibly even ejector. Hell, we don't have many ejector airtime moments in the UK full stop.

Also, you have to remember, we're not GP, you're asking enthusiasts their opinion. And I'm answering it from my own personal perspective. Why would I care what is best for Joe Bloggs? Or for Thorpe's lineup? I look at the coasters within my reach, not just within each park. I can, and do, travel to ride coasters, and this will be one of the most unique coasters in Europe imo, much more than just another B&M.

Oh yes, I was looking at it in very broad terms. I should clarify that the Saw comparison isn’t one I made up myself; it’s one I heard numerous other people make. I agree that they are unlikely to be overly similar rides, but if you look at what each ride has in very basic terms, then they do share some very similar characteristics. Here are two of the justifications for this opinion I read:

It strikes me that the layout is similar to Saw's outdoor section, just made larger and a bit crazier. It might be a bit of a stretch but ultimately highlights how this doesn't really add much dimension to the park's overall lineup.

Both feature:

• Large drop (over vertical or twisted vertical)
• Into an Immelmann like loop
• Into a turnaround of some sort

Exodus then has:

• Dive loop (later on Saw)
• Some kind of trim brake (Exodus is the splashdown, Saw is the block brake)
• Weird corkscrew/overbank (only element Saw doesn't feature)
• Airtime hill

I'm sure Exodus will be by far the better ride but I can't help feeling that this is a missed opportunity.

This is definitely not a conventional hyper. I've begun to think along the lines of a scaled up Saw; A series of short, punchy elements in quick succession, only twice the size, and with a significantly reduced risk of a splitting headache afterwards. In that respect, it's looking like a solid ride in the Thorpe line-up. It's not looking to be a head and shoulders above the rest sort of flagship, but it'll be good for Thorpe, and a worthwhile addition to the line up. Pokemaniac drew parallels with Dive Machines, and that's not something I'd considered, but it's probably quite accurate. There's something about the layout that reminds me of the El Locos, but that's probably more the look of the support structure, and the weird two rail rendering in some of the images, rather than a layout thing.

By “similar design philosophy”; I don’t just mean that Exodus has inversions. I mean that it is similar to Thorpe’s others in the basic sense that the bulk of its main elements are inversions. There’s a difference between a ride having inversions and a ride having most of its key elements being inversions. Even if Exodus has the most uber-cool, negative g filled inversions ever, it is ultimately still a coaster where a significant percentage of its main elements are inversions (of the elements in the main thrilling body of the ride, more are inverting than non-inverting), which is a term that could be used to describe a significant amount of UK coasters. In Thorpe in particular, the only thrilling roller coaster that does not have a heavy focus on inversions is the less-than-10-seconds-long Stealth, and Exodus doesn’t look to buck that trend upon first glance.

I don’t deny that Exodus will be a unique ride for the UK, nor do I deny that it will have airtime (and some rather strong moments by the sound of the renderings!), but I wouldn’t say it is a coaster that looks focused upon airtime, which is what the UK throughly lacks, in my opinion; something like a B&M Hyper or even a different layout Mack Hyper would have filled that void far better.

In terms of what viewpoint you’re viewing this from; if you’re viewing it from a wider viewpoint, fair enough. The B&M wouldn’t have been terribly unique on the world stage, and perhaps not as “exciting” as the Mack, but it is the ride that I personally prefer the look of layout-wise, and I also feel that it would have filled a more discernible gap within both Thorpe and the UK industry.

 

[Niles]

So i was interested in what non goons think, so i sent both videos in the OP to some friends and family with three questions.

Q1:Which one would you prefer to ride?

Q2:Which one looks more unique?

Q3:What one moment do you remember best overall?

I managed to annoy eight friends and four family members of which all like coasters but are not in to them as much as me to see what they think. Most are around early 20s and do like to visit theme parks.

I sent them or showed six of them the B&M first with the other the mack first.

So for Q1 it was 8 to 4 for the Mack, most saying the Mack looks wild and fun, however out of the four who went for the B&M 2 thought they would like it more due to the big hills while the other 2 thought the Mack looked nuts and terrifying.

For Q2 it was a Mack landslide with only one person thinking the B&M looked more unique. While only 4 of the twelve have done a B&M hyper most said the B&M looked like a normal coaster while the Mack Looked crazy and strange.

For Q3 the mack took everyone's vote with 3 saying the drop was thier pick, 4 with the stall and 5 saying the outer bank inversion.

Now this is a small sample but i think it does show that one of the reasons thorpe chose the Mack is due to how the GP will view it. While we have no B&M hypers in the UK most did not see it as something new or interesting.

Me personally im with the Mack ( would have loved 2 more hills but hay ho ) I love B&M hypers, Shambala & Diamondback are great ( Nitro was megh though ) with Shambala being right on the cusp of true greatness but it does not have that next level of intensity i want, tbf only a few coasters have it, but i think the Mack is more likely to give me that feeling.

Before all this i wanted an RMC similar to Iron Gwazi and taking the hybrid height record was my dream.

I wanted:
A record height
Intense layout
Ejector Airtime
Unique elements
a stall if it had inversions
And a lap bar

Now i guess the B&M would be as tall as the Mack? But in that video it does not feel as high.

The mack looks more intense, icon was a let down but looking at Macks recent work gives me much more hope.

Cannot be sure the Mack will give ejector but i think its more likely to than the B&M.

Hahahaha Unique elements, The Macks looks awesome.

Love a stall and the Mack will give me maybe something close.

I find Macks seats more freeing so they win there to.

So im happy with the Mack its not as long as i wished but i think it will be more fun. Comparing the B&M to other B&M hyper i cannot say it would be among the best, i think while a solid great coaster i cant see it being a elite coaster. While im not sure the Mack would also be, depending on the forces on those elements there is a chance it might be, so i really hope i see a Mack on the skyline in a few years.

 

[Nicky Borrill]

Oh yes, I was looking at it in very broad terms. I should clarify that the Saw comparison isn’t one I made up myself; it’s one I heard numerous other people make. I agree that they are unlikely to be overly similar rides, but if you look at what each ride has in very basic terms, then they do share some very similar characteristics. Here are two of the justifications for this opinion I read:



By “similar design philosophy”; I don’t just mean that Exodus has inversions. I mean that it is similar to Thorpe’s others in the basic sense that the bulk of its main elements are inversions. There’s a difference between a ride having inversions and a ride having most of its key elements being inversions. Even if Exodus has the most uber-cool, negative g filled inversions ever, it is ultimately still a coaster where a significant percentage of its main elements are inversions (of the elements in the main thrilling body of the ride, more are inverting than non-inverting), which is a term that could be used to describe a significant amount of UK coasters. In Thorpe in particular, the only thrilling roller coaster that does not have a heavy focus on inversions is the less-than-10-seconds-long Stealth, and Exodus doesn’t look to buck that trend upon first glance.

I don’t deny that Exodus will be a unique ride for the UK, nor do I deny that it will have airtime (and some rather strong moments by the sound of the renderings!), but I wouldn’t say it is a coaster that looks focused upon airtime, which is what the UK throughly lacks, in my opinion; something like a B&M Hyper or even a different layout Mack Hyper would have filled that void far better.

In terms of what viewpoint you’re viewing this from; if you’re viewing it from a wider viewpoint, fair enough. The B&M wouldn’t have been terribly unique on the world stage, and perhaps not as “exciting” as the Mack, but it is the ride that I personally prefer the look of layout-wise, and I also feel that it would have filled a more discernible gap within both Thorpe and the UK industry.

Matt, you literally just said that you don't just mean inversions, and then presented nothing of substance that is similar, other than inversions.

Also, 'most' of the layout's elements are not inversions at all. It has 2, maybe 3 inversions, with the 2 definite inversions being very unique. I'm not entirely sure that the first element after the drop will be classed as an inversion. It looks more like the element (Junior Immelmann) after the second launch on Icon to me, one of the better moments on Icon that is clearly designed for air time. There are at least 4 airtime moments, or more accurately, at least 4 moments designed for that. We can debate all day about how much airtime you'll actually feel, but we won't be sure until we ride it. What we can be sure of is that these elements are designed into the layout for that reason.

BTW You forgot Flying Fish and Walking Dead. So like I said, plenty of none inverting coasters. 42.85% of their current coaster lineup is non-inverting. This would change to 37.5% with Exodus, not at all out of balance for a park that markets itself as a 'thrill' park.

I do wish it was longer, with more airtime hills / bunny hops on the end. But then, even that's not to everybody's taste, a lot of people hate those smaller airtime hills that are added onto the end of layouts.

 

[Matt N]

Matt, you literally just said that you don't just mean inversions, and then presented nothing of substance that is similar, other than inversions.

Also, 'most' of the layout's elements are not inversions at all. It has 2, maybe 3 inversions, with the 2 definite inversions being very unique. I'm not entirely sure that the first element after the drop will be classed as an inversion. It looks more like the element (Junior Immelmann) after the second launch on Icon to me, one of the better moments on Icon that is clearly designed for air time. There are at least 4 airtime moments, or more accurately, at least 4 moments designed for that. We can debate all day about how much airtime you'll actually feel, but we won't be sure until we ride it. What we can be sure of is that these elements are designed into the layout for that reason.

BTW You forgot Flying Fish and Walking Dead. So like I said, plenty of none inverting coasters. 42.85% of their current coaster lineup is non-inverting. This would change to 37.5% with Exodus, not at all out of balance for a park that markets itself as a 'thrill' park.

I do wish it was longer, with more airtime hills / bunny hops on the end. But then, even that's not to everybody's taste, a lot of people hate those smaller airtime hills that are added onto the end of layouts.

Sorry, I worded that badly. I meant to say that I didn’t mean that the mere presence of inversions made it similar to Thorpe’s others; I more meant that the bulk of the ride appeared to consist of inversions in a similar way. I’ll leave that there, though, as I can sense that I’m digging myself a deeper hole and making my argument less and less valid with everything I say… I would argue, though, that I think the presence of multiple inversions on the ride, as immaterial as it might seem, would make the gap that the ride fills within the park less discernible than if it were non-inverting.

I digress that I did consider the Immelmann an inversion, so I considered the ride to have 3 inversions in my calculations. I also consider Icon’s an inversion (perhaps controversially). The ride doesn’t have that many elements, and a not insignificant percentage of them are inversions (even if you don’t count the Immelmann as one). It’s not like a big, long RMC or something, where inversions are just sprinkled in every now and then. On Exodus, inversions take up quite a considerable percentage of the ride elements; as super cool as these inversions may be, they are still inversions.

My exclusion of Flying Fish and Walking Dead was purposeful, as I was looking purely at non-inverting thrill coasters. Each to their own and all that, but I would not consider Flying Fish and Walking Dead thrill coasters, in spite of TWD’s theme. If you look purely at Thorpe’s thrilling lineup (their big 5), only Stealth does not invert, and that ride is only 10 seconds or so long; it’s more of a one-trick ride, really. The others all have quite a significant percentage of their layouts dedicated to inversions, and Exodus doesn’t appear to buck that trend too substantially at first glance. To back up my point; let me bring in Alton Towers as a like for like comparison. Even if you look solely at Alton Towers’ 1.4m thrills (like for like with Thorpe; both parks have 5 of these, so it’s quite a fair comparison), Towers has 2 non-inverting 1.4m thrills while Thorpe has only 1, and when you bring in Thirteen and Wicker Man from the 1.2m category as well, that brings the number of non-inverting thrill coasters at the park to 4/7. If you’re generous and consider Spinball a thrill coaster too (I excluded it because Towers doesn’t class Spinball as a big 7 ride), then the percentage goes up to 5/8. Now I’m not suggesting that Thorpe needs to make a considerable bulk of its thrill lineup non-inverting like Towers has, but I reckon at least one more non-inverting thrill coaster of a higher calibre would add a very valuable extra dimension to their lineup and provide a little bit more variety.

I accept that you’re probably right and I’m probably wrong here, though, so I should probably just quit before I dig myself an even deeper hole… sorry to waste your time.