Keeping Orcas in captivity - Is it wrong?
- Thread starter SaiyanHajime
- Start date
Darren B
Giga Poster
marc said:
Everyone seems to think Tilikum is left alone, this is simply not the case. He's trained differently to the other Orca's so he's kept apart from them during husbandry sessions and shows, however in between these events he often spends time with the other Orca's, there are only 2 that he's kept apart from due to him being constantly bullied by them.
His role as 'sperm bank' is also up for question, 10 or so years ago, yes he was heavily relied upon, but now there are several bull orca's that are fathering newborn calfs, they're even using the sole Argentinian orca to breed with now.
Just to note, Marineland Canada's sole Orca Kiska is reportedly pregnant and due in 2014 (she was also rumoured to be pregnant last year, but wasn't) which suggests Marineland Canada will start Orca shows once the calf is old enough to perform. If she fails with this pregnancy Kiska will be removed from Marineland and sent to Japan so she's no longer alone.
And the notion that Orca's are suffering for our pleasure is complete and utter bollocks. Living the ideal life? I get the argument there, but to say they're suffering is horse ****. And I know Jordan doesn't actually share that idea either, otherwise she wouldn't have been shrieking in delight as the Dolphin's in Finland were playing basketball.
Those Dolphins were fab <3
There was a thing about the new males being his sons, Sea World have not firmed this or said it's not true.
There was talk of inbreeding taking place.
It's hard to know what's true with regards to the above.
But if it's true and they are using one from another country it cannot be true unless it's a male that Sea World sold.
There was talk of inbreeding taking place.
It's hard to know what's true with regards to the above.
But if it's true and they are using one from another country it cannot be true unless it's a male that Sea World sold.
Darren B
Giga Poster
Kshamenk is the father of the Makani, the orca born at SeaWorld San Diego earlier this year. Obviously it was artificial insemination as Kshamenk has been alone for many years.
Six Flags did attempt to purchase him for Six Flags Discovery Kingdom but were refused by the Argentinian government who refuse to trade wild animals, I find this wrong because I actually do find it cruel to keep Orca's alone, they should at least have one other whale for companionship. And give Six Flags their dues, after they failed to purchase him they did the right thing by allowing their lone Orca (Shouka) to be purchased by SeaWorld.
Six Flags did attempt to purchase him for Six Flags Discovery Kingdom but were refused by the Argentinian government who refuse to trade wild animals, I find this wrong because I actually do find it cruel to keep Orca's alone, they should at least have one other whale for companionship. And give Six Flags their dues, after they failed to purchase him they did the right thing by allowing their lone Orca (Shouka) to be purchased by SeaWorld.
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
I have not said "LETS TALK ABOUT WHALES" and then when everyone started talking about whales said "WHY ARE YOU ALL SO OBSESSED WITH WHALES??" like you're implying. What I actually did was say "hey, what do you think about this issue?" and then challenged people's opinions by going "yeah but what about this similar issue, then?"gavin said:
The only time I've been "aggressive" it's been aggravation.
Well, It's weird how you were so obsessed with the grounds on which I started this topic in your last comment, but now that's thrown out the window.
I've not once implied all animals are the same, and you're twisting my points out of context of their original argument. Being captivity bred couldn't be further from the point with the cockatiels. Mine aren't tame, for a start, but the point itself is about how animals do not exhort energy without reason. The size of Orca enclosures is regularly attacked with benign comments like "they travel hundreds of miles every day in the wild" without ever stopping to realise that they do this FOR FOOD and with a source at the ready, would they really travel so far?
I'm not sure why generations matter. All this implies is that "in the future, it'll be okay to keep orcas in captivity, but it's not right now" which clearly doesn't make any sense. And what of other highly intelligent species that have been kept for generations in captivity, like some of the higher parrots and other birds like corvids and the higher primates? Or Elephants? The only reason we're so far behind with Orca is because they are difficult to keep and technologically it's not even been possible until fairly recently. Does it suddenly become okay when the technology is sufficient?
All animals do indeed have different needs. But we do not understand those needs 100%. Phil's point about lions and tigers sounds legit, but what's the actual reality of it? I've seen lions pace in zoos and tigers play and sleep in zoos. Phil's point is trying to rationalise hypocritical personal desire to go to zoos, imo.
That's perfectly cool, but attacking me with emotional arguments of hypocrisy is just silly.
Darren B
Giga Poster
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9o94CtSVqTM
This is a really good watch, and gives you a good idea of what happens behind the scenes.
This is a really good watch, and gives you a good idea of what happens behind the scenes.
Joey said:
I'm pretty ambivalent about the whole thing to be honest. I'm definitely for keeping any animal in captivity if it's for conservation. I'd prefer to see rhinos alive and breeding well in Africa on TV than miserable looking ones at Chester zoo. However, all you see are dead ones in Africa, so the miserable living ones in Chester zoo are a better option.
If Chester zoo didn't have rhinos, I wouldn't mind.
If they had rhinos but kept them in a secret huge grassland where people couldn't see them as they are there to be saved rather than used as a spectacle, I wouldn't mind.
If they have them in a decent enclosure and use the money generated by visitors seeing them to help protect the species and keep it alive for future generations (and perhaps one day to reintroduce them to the wild), that's fine too.
If there are millions in the wild and they only have them as a way of people going to see them - as long as they're behaving naturally and seem comfortable/relaxed, that's also fine.
I'd only feel hypocritical if I said I was dead against keeping these animals in captivity and then continued to visit the places and supported their "popularity". I've actively boycotted Seaworld all my life for instance
My only real issue with the orcas is that it's impossible to come close to giving them what they would have in a natural environment. Yes, they don't have to swim miles in the wild if there's a ready food source, but they would still like more room, rather like you would like more room than your bedroom and passage to the bathroom if you were forced to live in a house all your life. They would still like to be able to live in a pod with friends and family (in decent numbers), the same way we allow lions to live in captivity. I don't think we'll ever be able to offer that, so maybe its best to just let the captive animals die off naturally and not replace them? Or maybe they're happy and it's all fine - but as long as I don't really like, I'm not heading to Seaworld
Looks like the bad press had got to Blackstone, created another topic for this anyway.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/blacks ... 2013-11-20
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/blacks ... 2013-11-20
Darren B
Giga Poster
SeaWorld apply to release Tilikum back to the wild
It seems SeaWorld have finally bowed down to pressure to release it's prized Orca, Tilikum. Requesting to release him back into Icelandic waters, where he captured at 2 years old.
Tilikum is the largest Orca in captivity, weighing in at 12,000 pounds, with a length of 22ft. Tilikum is world renowned for being responsible for the deaths of 2 trainers and a member of the public. He's also the most successful breeding male to exist in captivity.
From a personal standpoint I'd like to see it happen, but ONLY if it's safe to do so. If this ends the same way as the Keiko (Free Willy) story then shame on the people that have forced SeaWorld's hand. I've seen Tilikum perform and he's an amazing spectacle, I really hope that the right people can make the correct decision on his behalf.
timzimmermann.com/2013/11/25/keiko-2-tilikum/
I've linked Tim Zimmerman's page above.
It seems SeaWorld have finally bowed down to pressure to release it's prized Orca, Tilikum. Requesting to release him back into Icelandic waters, where he captured at 2 years old.
Tilikum is the largest Orca in captivity, weighing in at 12,000 pounds, with a length of 22ft. Tilikum is world renowned for being responsible for the deaths of 2 trainers and a member of the public. He's also the most successful breeding male to exist in captivity.
From a personal standpoint I'd like to see it happen, but ONLY if it's safe to do so. If this ends the same way as the Keiko (Free Willy) story then shame on the people that have forced SeaWorld's hand. I've seen Tilikum perform and he's an amazing spectacle, I really hope that the right people can make the correct decision on his behalf.
timzimmermann.com/2013/11/25/keiko-2-tilikum/
I've linked Tim Zimmerman's page above.
Darren B
Giga Poster
Re: SeaWorld apply to release Tilikum back to the wild
You cruel bastard aha! In all seriousness, it's not the Orca's fault. He's never been introduced to humans in the water, so doesn't know how to react when the situation occurs. He thought he was playing with them, he just doesn't know his own strength. Plain and simple, he should have been introduced with trainers in his tank from capture, and all 3 deaths would have been avoided.
Marc, you're absolutely right. Could you imagine the **** storm that would rain down on SeaWorld if Tilikum claimed another life? They'd be crippled.
Ben said:
You cruel bastard aha! In all seriousness, it's not the Orca's fault. He's never been introduced to humans in the water, so doesn't know how to react when the situation occurs. He thought he was playing with them, he just doesn't know his own strength. Plain and simple, he should have been introduced with trainers in his tank from capture, and all 3 deaths would have been avoided.
Marc, you're absolutely right. Could you imagine the **** storm that would rain down on SeaWorld if Tilikum claimed another life? They'd be crippled.
Darren B
Giga Poster
Re: SeaWorld apply to release Tilikum back to the wild
^ I think Blackfish sums it up quite well. Generally a lot of the negative actions that Orca's produce are with playful intent, however lets be clear, a 20ft Orca thrashing you around, even playfully isn't going look like your average man playing with his Yorkshire terrier. It going to look pretty horrific.
I do however fully believe that out of the 70+ recorded incidents between Orca's and their trainers a few may not have been playful moments, but rather the orca's acting out in frustration. Their intent isn't to kill, nobody is arguing that, but they will act out and become aggressive at times, and with their sheer size it's no wonder why 3 trainers have lost their lives. But like I stated in my previous post, the 2 trainer deaths could have been avoided if Tilikum had been introduced to humans in his tank, he'd of had a good understanding of his strengths to that of a humans, and I think Dawn would have escaped with a mouthful of water and a few bruises.
The third death has never really been publicised too heavily, maybe because it wasn't at a SeaWorld park (Loro Parque), although the Orca (Keto) was owned by SeaWorld. He apparently crushed the trainer to death in his mouth, nobody has really commented on whether it was an act of fustration/violence or playfulness gone wrong. This however WAS an Orca that was regularly in contact with humans in his tank.
The bottom line is we will never truly understand Orca's. We can argue as much as we want but we'll never know exactly what happened, and what thoughts the Orca's possessed.
^ I think Blackfish sums it up quite well. Generally a lot of the negative actions that Orca's produce are with playful intent, however lets be clear, a 20ft Orca thrashing you around, even playfully isn't going look like your average man playing with his Yorkshire terrier. It going to look pretty horrific.
I do however fully believe that out of the 70+ recorded incidents between Orca's and their trainers a few may not have been playful moments, but rather the orca's acting out in frustration. Their intent isn't to kill, nobody is arguing that, but they will act out and become aggressive at times, and with their sheer size it's no wonder why 3 trainers have lost their lives. But like I stated in my previous post, the 2 trainer deaths could have been avoided if Tilikum had been introduced to humans in his tank, he'd of had a good understanding of his strengths to that of a humans, and I think Dawn would have escaped with a mouthful of water and a few bruises.
The third death has never really been publicised too heavily, maybe because it wasn't at a SeaWorld park (Loro Parque), although the Orca (Keto) was owned by SeaWorld. He apparently crushed the trainer to death in his mouth, nobody has really commented on whether it was an act of fustration/violence or playfulness gone wrong. This however WAS an Orca that was regularly in contact with humans in his tank.
The bottom line is we will never truly understand Orca's. We can argue as much as we want but we'll never know exactly what happened, and what thoughts the Orca's possessed.
Darren B
Giga Poster
Re: SeaWorld apply to release Tilikum back to the wild
This is where opinions differ, I have an issue with the fact that they were captured in the first place, but the programme of captive Orca's is advanced to such a level that in 10-15 years there won't be an Orca in North America or Eastern Europe that has been captured from the wild. They'll all be captive born, and that I don't have a problem with.
On a note you've touched on though, what happens to the Orca's if everyone were to boycott SeaWorld? It cost a fortune to place Keiko back into the wild, nevermind the rest of the Orca's that could fit the criteria. And then what happens to the captive Borns? You can't just have them put down.
The answer isn't to boycott aquariums, just put pressure on them to do things the right way.
This is where opinions differ, I have an issue with the fact that they were captured in the first place, but the programme of captive Orca's is advanced to such a level that in 10-15 years there won't be an Orca in North America or Eastern Europe that has been captured from the wild. They'll all be captive born, and that I don't have a problem with.
On a note you've touched on though, what happens to the Orca's if everyone were to boycott SeaWorld? It cost a fortune to place Keiko back into the wild, nevermind the rest of the Orca's that could fit the criteria. And then what happens to the captive Borns? You can't just have them put down.
The answer isn't to boycott aquariums, just put pressure on them to do things the right way.