Keeping Orcas in captivity - Is it wrong?

[rtotheizzo17]

Fair enough, you fall on one side of the line I fall on the other. I still say millions of people are educated about animals that they may never know about thanks to places like SeaWorld, and connections are made that influence future generations.

EDIT:

And on a side note the petition is strictly about Tilikum. It doesn't say release all Orcas/dolphins. It is a petition to place him in a sea pen, so still in the care of people, just with nets instead of glass.

 

[Gavin]

I still say millions of people are educated about animals that they may never know about thanks to places like SeaWorld, and connections are made that influence future generations.

For the most part, I completely agree with you on that. I have absolutely no problem with the overall concept of keeping animals in captivity. It's just that I believe that certain species shouldn't be kept as there is absolutely no conservational value in it, and the "education" they provide is dubious at best.

Plenty of zoos, wildlife parks and marine parks manage perfectly well, bring plenty of people in through the gates, educate the public and attempt to instill a sense of environmental care without having to keep killer whales.

As far as the petition goes, and in Tilikum's case, I'd say that it's a very reasonable request. It acknowledges that you can't simply throw them back into the ocean, but there are other ways of "retiring" these animals. Will it happen? No, but I think it's opening up a discussion that really needs to be had.

 

[marc]

We won't watch the show at Sea World as the last time we did they had to bring a baby into the main tank with its mother or the wale would not do the act.

So please don't tell me the care more about the wale than the show, they should have just cut that part of the show out rather than have to people keeping the baby to one side whilst it's mother was jumping etc.

We thought it was wrong as did quite a few others that saw the show, there were a lot of comments in the crowd.

 

[furie]

That being said, if it wasn't for the SeaWorld marine parks the average person would probably never know Killer Whales existed. Look at the movie Orca. Thats how the world thought of these animals in the late 70's.

To be fair, Orca is a better representation of Killer Whales in the wild than Seaworld could EVER portray (except those instances where they let the whales NOM on the staff).

Oddly; I know more about Killer Whales than I do Seaworld - either way, Seaworld aren't doing a very good job

As for keeping them in captivity, I'm mixed a little. I don't have an issue with animals in captivity - conservation la de da.

However, Orcas are huge, massively intelligent and incredibly social animals. It really is the equivalent of you being put into a small glass cage either on your own, or with somebody you don't know and may not get on with. All this after being pulled away from all your family and friends. Imagine an alien abducting you at family Christmas and you're probably close to how it must feel to be taken(Gavin wishes that had happened last year though to be fair ).

At the very least, they need large space and to be integrated into pods as they would in nature (obviously matching transients with transients and residential types with residential types). That wouldn't work, because the enclosures would need to be the size of Seaworld (possibly, I don't know, I don't know much about Seaworld ) and nobody would pay to go and look at a huge expanse of water with the whales hiding away. You could send people out in boats I suppose, but it wouldn't take long for the Orca to work out how to get at the occupants

So it's a bad idea, but I think too late any currently in captivity. The absolute best thing they could do is to now breed any more (or capture) for captivity and to just educate people about them any way. "We stopped keeping Orcas because..."

 

[rtotheizzo17]

We won't watch the show at Sea World as the last time we did they had to bring a baby into the main tank with its mother or the wale would not do the act.

So please don't tell me the care more about the wale than the show, they should have just cut that part of the show out rather than have to people keeping the baby to one side whilst it's mother was jumping etc.

We thought it was wrong as did quite a few others that saw the show, there were a lot of comments in the crowd.

Is that some different spelling of whale? I tried googling it but can't find it.

Did the trainers get on the PA and say, "we forced ______ to leave her baby to perform this behavior"? Did you go to every show that day? That week? Since the baby was born?

How do you know that she wasn't perfectly fine 10 minutes earlier swimming in a different location from her baby, and that was the first time she displayed any sort of separation anxiety ever?

So again, a bunch of people with ZERO animal experience have formed an opinion based on something they think they saw maybe once.

 

[rtotheizzo17]

That being said, if it wasn't for the SeaWorld marine parks the average person would probably never know Killer Whales existed. Look at the movie Orca. Thats how the world thought of these animals in the late 70's.

To be fair, Orca is a better representation of Killer Whales in the wild than Seaworld could EVER portray (except those instances where they let the whales NOM on the staff).

Oddly; I know more about Killer Whales than I do Seaworld - either way, Seaworld aren't doing a very good job

As for keeping them in captivity, I'm mixed a little. I don't have an issue with animals in captivity - conservation la de da.

However, Orcas are huge, massively intelligent and incredibly social animals. It really is the equivalent of you being put into a small glass cage either on your own, or with somebody you don't know and may not get on with. All this after being pulled away from all your family and friends. Imagine an alien abducting you at family Christmas and you're probably close to how it must feel to be taken(Gavin wishes that had happened last year though to be fair ).

At the very least, they need large space and to be integrated into pods as they would in nature (obviously matching transients with transients and residential types with residential types). That wouldn't work, because the enclosures would need to be the size of Seaworld (possibly, I don't know, I don't know much about Seaworld ) and nobody would pay to go and look at a huge expanse of water with the whales hiding away. You could send people out in boats I suppose, but it wouldn't take long for the Orca to work out how to get at the occupants

So it's a bad idea, but I think too late any currently in captivity. The absolute best thing they could do is to now breed any more (or capture) for captivity and to just educate people about them any way. "We stopped keeping Orcas because..."

Aren't you just too cool for school.

I would argue that the SeaWorld pods are a completely unique species from Killer Whales in the wild. Just like how in the wild they don't cross breed, and formed unique gene pools these whales are forming one right now. They all have the same diet (fish, ice, and the occasional bird who gets too brave), they all have the same basic social structure, and they all have the same basic habitat.

You guys are severley over-estimating the ability of the average person. There are people who only know of Orcas because of SeaWorld.

 

[furie]

Is that some different spelling of whale? I tried googling it but can't find it.

If you want to destroy your reputation for an ability to make an argument, pick up on poor spelling, particularly with a well known dyslexic

Aren't you just too cool for school.

It's true, I was, or that's what I told my parents anyway. They didn't believe me so I failed everything on a general principle

I would argue that the SeaWorld pods are a completely unique species from Killer Whales in the wild. Just like how in the wild they don't cross breed, and formed unique gene pools these whales are forming one right now. They all have the same diet (fish, ice, and the occasional bird who gets too brave), they all have the same basic social structure, and they all have the same basic habitat.

You could argue that, but first you'd have to redefine the word "species"

You guys are severley over-estimating the ability of the average person. There are people who only know of Orcas because of SeaWorld.

The other 7 billion who have never been to Seaworld either use their own brains and interest, or just don't know anything about them because they have no reason to know anything about them

I know a lot about Pangolins, but I've never seen one in captivity. I don't need to see one to want to learn about them. They're endangered, but nobody picks them up, makes them perform and then claims the world is richer because now 3 million people have seen one live at Pangolinworld.

 

[Darren B]

^^Before the first Orca was captured they were considered pests. Machine guns were put up on the shores to destroy Orcas as they were greatly affecting the fishing trade. When the first Orca was captured they realised that these were intelligent and harmless creatures and it would be wrong to kill them. Soon after, all the machine guns were removed and a shot was never fired.

So actually, capturing Orca's has protected them in a funny sort of way.

 

[furie]

Harmless? You could expand that to Mostly Harmless at least - fifteen years of research and the best you can come up with is harmless?

You're right Darren (and Risotto), sometimes catching an animal can help to promote awareness - but it's not the way scientists generally do things these days. Then again, it's rare that people take out heavy artillery on wildlife these days unnoticed either. Even the sharks are getting good press now.

Conservation and education about wildlife are much higher on the radar these days. For the "educated world", we're aware much more these days of nature as it's pushed through many channels - from Dora the Explorer to Sir David Attenborough (passing through Steve Backshall on the way ) - from a young age. There is much less need these days to capture animals to study them. They are observed in the wild, tracked in the wild and studied in the wild with much higher efficaciousness than with captive animals. Even better, when they're filmed in the wild, it serves as a much better educational approach than the shows in the likes of Seaworld - and reaches a much larger audience.

 

[marc]

Stupid auto correct lol, yes I meant whale not wale. But I spelt whale wrong so it put wale.

The trainers announced that the baby was a month old and the mother needs the baby with her.

That says to me she should not have been performing. Other people in the hotel who went later in the week said it was the same on other days and the night show.

We don't know what a whale is thinking, and it's no fair that the mother was forced to do the show. Yes I say forced as she cannot say no can she ? And no she did not do all the stunts they wanted her to do and again that says to me she did not want to be in there.

Anyway I was there and saw it as were many others who all said and thought the same thing.

What are they actually learning about these a Whales now days? Can anyone actually say?

 

[Darren B]

They can refuse sometimes do. There is no way of making them perform, they have 2 groups of performers in most instances, especially at SeaWorld Orlando. If one whale won't perform they switch it with one of the whales resting in the back pen's. Tilikum is the only Orca that is used in every show, but he only performs for 3-5 minutes at a time.

Due to the whales having such a good relationship with their trainers it's apparently quite rare these days to have a whale not perform. Lolita in Miami Seaquarium has apparently never missed a show or refused to perform. That tells you about the fantastic relationship she has with her trainers.

One thing I do disagree with though is that SeaWorld have been banned from allowing trainers to be in the water with an Orca. It's confusing to the whale and it must be difficult for them to not have that human contact that they're used to.

 

[marc]

Yes Darren and that was the problem, why make the mother perform and not the other group?

The whale you mentioned just swims out and soaks people, that's his part of the show.

Agree with you about the human contact thing.

My problem is I just don't see why we need to keep them in captivity anymore. Why are they breeding them still? What are we learning? Are we stopping them from becoming extinct?

When you see wild Whales on tv they look different as the dorsal is erect yet at Sea World it's alway down. Sea World again made a point of saying this was not due to them being unhappy, but how do we know?

 

[rtotheizzo17]

Is that some different spelling of whale? I tried googling it but can't find it.

If you want to destroy your reputation for an ability to make an argument, pick up on poor spelling, particularly with a well known dyslexic

Aren't you just too cool for school.

It's true, I was, or that's what I told my parents anyway. They didn't believe me so I failed everything on a general principle

I would argue that the SeaWorld pods are a completely unique species from Killer Whales in the wild. Just like how in the wild they don't cross breed, and formed unique gene pools these whales are forming one right now. They all have the same diet (fish, ice, and the occasional bird who gets too brave), they all have the same basic social structure, and they all have the same basic habitat.

You could argue that, but first you'd have to redefine the word "species"

You guys are severley over-estimating the ability of the average person. There are people who only know of Orcas because of SeaWorld.

The other 7 billion who have never been to Seaworld either use their own brains and interest, or just don't know anything about them because they have no reason to know anything about them

I know a lot about Pangolins, but I've never seen one in captivity. I don't need to see one to want to learn about them. They're endangered, but nobody picks them up, makes them perform and then claims the world is richer because now 3 million people have seen one live at Pangolinworld.

I wasn't picking on anyone, thats why I asked. I know we have people who post from different cultures and wanted to see if it was an actual language difference.

I don't follow everyone who posts, so unless someone signs it with "Hi I am dyslexic pardon my spelling" how am I supposed to know?

Species, sub-species, whatever. You understand the premise of my point. Killer Whales have developed lines that are similar to the races we see in humans. Distinct features depending on geographical location.

With that argument why is there any need for any captivity at all? **** the animals. If some tribal kid in a 3rd world country will never see a ____ anyways why does it matter?

 

[Darren B]

The thing is they can't be released back into the wild, look at the Keiko story, he had no interest in socialising with other Orca's and constantly craved human interaction. A year later he beached himself.

I agree with the bay pen idea in some circumstances, ie. whales that are kept alone, Lolita especially, these Orca's are perfect candidates for bay pens, the SeaWorld Orca's not so much. I think they're best kept where they are.

And like I said before, I don't have a problem with breeding them in captivity, they're perfectly healthy and happy so why not keep it that way? And I do believe they're educational to an extent and they act as ambassadors to their wild counterparts. But I fully understand the argument about releasing them and stoping the breeding programme, but honestly, I enjoy watching them perform. I wouldn't want that to happen.

 

[rtotheizzo17]

^^The interactions (shows) are part of the enrichment for the animals. Just like your dog gets excited when you tell him to sit, stay, roll over (or perform for you), the animals get excited when they get to display the behaviors.

Dorsal fin collapse does happen more often in captivity (usually only in males). They have not determined the cause of it. When it happens in the wild (and it does), they believe it is due to damage to the cartelidge at the base of the fin.

As science and research evolves (and SeaWorld is usually apart of that), adjustments will be made to the way people take care of Orcas.

 

[marc]

It's sort of a catch 22 thing really.

People love seeing them and tbh whales born there do not know any different.

As long as they are happy that's the main thing.

As said my views changed after seeing a show that upset me.

 

[furie]

I wasn't picking on anyone, thats why I asked. I know we have people who post from different cultures and wanted to see if it was an actual language difference.

I don't follow everyone who posts, so unless someone signs it with "Hi I am dyslexic pardon my spelling" how am I supposed to know?

Okay, my bad

Species, sub-species, whatever. You understand the premise of my point. Killer Whales have developed lines that are similar to the races we see in humans. Distinct features depending on geographical location.

Okay, but of a handful in captivity when there is a healthy population in the wild.

With that argument why is there any need for any captivity at all? **** the animals. If some tribal kid in a 3rd world country will never see a ____ anyways why does it matter?

Because of conservation generally (Chester Zoo has several highly endangered species they are breeding successfully), or because some animals are content in captivity or because it makes a company huge amounts of money.

For Seaworld, it is almost purely the latter - which is what this argument is about

The thing is they can't be released back into the wild, look at the Keiko story, he had no interest in socialising with other Orca's and constantly craved human interaction. A year later he beached himself.

I agree with the bay pen idea in some circumstances, ie. whales that are kept alone, Lolita especially, these Orca's are perfect candidates for bay pens, the SeaWorld Orca's not so much. I think they're best kept where they are.

And like I said before, I don't have a problem with breeding them in captivity, they're perfectly healthy and happy so why not keep it that way? And I do believe they're educational to an extent and they act as ambassadors to their wild counterparts. But I fully understand the argument about releasing them and stoping the breeding programme, but honestly, I enjoy watching them perform. I wouldn't want that to happen.

I don't think that captive whales should be released (I did say that 3,000 word back ). I don't think that new whales should be bred though. The point of this is that the whales (which are probably on par with human intelligence, or at least close) probably aren't happy in captivity. Yes, it's the only life they know, but when you have animals which are very self aware (dolphins are self-aware), then you need to question how right it is to keep them in these conditions.

I think the problem is that we'll never know, because we can't communicate with them beyond anything other than our very basic "you're a clever animal, but not as clever as us so you don't matter because you can't talk to us" way

Until one does a particularly sophisticated double back flip through a hoop whilst whistling the star spangled banner, we'll never know what they're trying to say.

 

[marc]

Things have changed so much over the years.

I had no idea Clacton Pier used to have them, I remember the Dolphins.

http://www.marineanimalwelfare.com/Dolp ... lacton.htm

 

[Darren B]

^It used to be horrendous!

Various countries would hold them in tanks barely big enough to swim in. The ones on Clacton Pier were only babies though (not that it makes it right), they were moved to larger tanks as they grew older. Apparently one of the finest Orca trainers in existence used to train them there and his father would sell them on.

There have been a few Orca's housed in the UK, most recently at Windsor Safari Park.

 

[marc]

It was interesting reading about it.