God
- Thread starter danielfitzgerald99
- Start date
^Still, I find a bit of an issue there:
Jesus was a Jew. It was his task in life to tell everyone how they could become better jews, praise the lord in the right ways, etc.
Then he dies. And comes back.
And tells St.Peter: "Build me a church in Rome"
Why not a Jewish synagogue? All that life, telling people how they could improve their religion, and then he founds a new one, centered around himself? Not exactly in line with his earlier statements, no? Why all that faff about protecting the temples, then to throw all that out of the window?
This is in no way meant as critisism. I just want to hear an answer to this.
Jesus was a Jew. It was his task in life to tell everyone how they could become better jews, praise the lord in the right ways, etc.
Then he dies. And comes back.
And tells St.Peter: "Build me a church in Rome"
Why not a Jewish synagogue? All that life, telling people how they could improve their religion, and then he founds a new one, centered around himself? Not exactly in line with his earlier statements, no? Why all that faff about protecting the temples, then to throw all that out of the window?
This is in no way meant as critisism. I just want to hear an answer to this.
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
Mohammed did that too, why aren't you following him? God updated the rulebook a second time and you simply choose to ignore? Why?jokerman said:
EDIT: Oh yeah, and why would an all knowing infallable God change his religion?
Maybe he was clinically dead... But not actually dead? And Everyone just THOUGHT he was dead?Ben said:
Joey said:
The point is that some things had been misinterpreted, probably quite easy for that to happen considering it is a supernatural being contacting the human world.
Also, people were abusing the religion, for example the story when Jesus goes to the temple, and there are people using it as a market. God wanted this to stop, so he sent Jesus to help change the religion for the better.
Joey said:
Good point. If people back then genuinely thought he was the son of God, then they'd probably think he was dead, too.
If somebody nowadays come along proclaiming to be the son of God then they'd be put in the loony bin before you could say "He's not the son of God, he's a very naughty boy."
Should have added "according to the story", I see. But it's the start of a new religion that's the paradox.Ben said:
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
But being all knowing, God would have foreseen that his religion would become corrupted, so that still doesn't explain why you'd need come down to Earth in human form to rectify misinterpretations.jokerman said:
More importantly, why change the religion completely? This wasn't a case of rectifying a few misinterpretations, Christianity is completely different to Judaism. And different variations of Christianity are also vastly different.
God's efforts to rectify the misinterpretations must have been at a loss, given that so many variants of Christianity exist. Since he would have to have known this, why did he even bother? His free thinking creations, us, are so badly designed that through chinese whispers we corrupt His words unintentionally, unless you honestly believe that you've got his words entirely correct and the rest of the planet is pure evil.
You didn't answer my question. God sent another prophet to update His word after Jesus, Mohammed. Why do you refuse Mohammed's words, like the Jew's refuse Jesus'?
Back then? The most worrying thing is people still do.
From what I understand, most Christians do not believe that he was literally the Son of God. They usually believe He was God himself, but in human form. Not that this is any less stupid, but Christians really don't like to be called polytheists. I can't blame them, really. They believe in a fearsome character who selfishly punished anyone who worshipped anything else.
Joey, you need to learn more
God created man, and everything was perfect (garden of Eden affair). Then he discovered self-will (by eating the forbidden fruit).
I think, this (Genesis) is metaphor for man becoming sentient and self aware. If we believe that God put us all here (even the whole kick start evolution thing, sitting back and watching things develop for hundreds of millions of years) - then this was the crowning achievement.
This is a very scientific kind of view of it. Imagine God is kind of chemist. He put the correct mix of everything into the universe in the big bang. He set it in motion and sat back and watched how it all unfolded. Every so often, he'd give it a shake or a stir and make something, an additional experiment. Life being one of them.
Eventually you reach a form of ape who is on the brink of something big. This is all a bit 2001, but God pushes the right button and the ape becomes self-aware and mankind is born pretty much as we know it.
Okay, so we now have Adam and Eve, naked and scared. God says "you've chosen (did they, or did he push them?) free will, so off you go, I'm leaving you to it. Just remember there is a God, and I'm in charge - mind you still worship me and respect me, but I'm not going to ever contact you directly myself again - though I may give out pointers from time to time."
So that's it, the human race is no longer in a two way communication with God as they used to be. God has left the human experiment to go off on it's own. We all know that we need challenges to make us stronger. If God had fed and clothed us forever, we'd have never developed into what we are now. This is all God's plan. Let us carry on with our own free choices and make our way in the world.
Our own free will allows us to chose to be closer with God, and therefore to reap the benefits when we die.
Every so often though, God's message is getting mixed up. Evil people pretend to know God and fool everyone else. At these points, God steps in and sets things right.
At first it was easy, but as the world grew, a single way of worshipping God wasn't practical, so he set out a few different versions so everyone had a choice. As long as people worship him, he doesn't care.
The point is, God is a hands off manager. He said so right at the start. He uses "prophets" to help people get back on the right track, but generally talks through people silently, gently directing actions from behind the scenes. He's a big believer in free will though, as it's that concious choice which makes you worthy of a place at his side or not.
The prophets aren't a sign of God's weakness, but of mankind's. They're just there to help them stay on a rough track, one in which God is playing a generally hands off role - so people can prove themselves worthy.
I don't actually believe it, but that's how it falls - God says "let the people do things, and if they're good at it, I'll help them and reward". Think of us as pets. Your dog will think you're all knowing, all seeing and the be all and end all of existence. Yet you don't spend 100% of the time with them. Yet you can train them quickly, and you always know it was them who pissed on the carpet. Upscale that by several million degrees and you have the human/God thing
God created man, and everything was perfect (garden of Eden affair). Then he discovered self-will (by eating the forbidden fruit).
I think, this (Genesis) is metaphor for man becoming sentient and self aware. If we believe that God put us all here (even the whole kick start evolution thing, sitting back and watching things develop for hundreds of millions of years) - then this was the crowning achievement.
This is a very scientific kind of view of it. Imagine God is kind of chemist. He put the correct mix of everything into the universe in the big bang. He set it in motion and sat back and watched how it all unfolded. Every so often, he'd give it a shake or a stir and make something, an additional experiment. Life being one of them.
Eventually you reach a form of ape who is on the brink of something big. This is all a bit 2001, but God pushes the right button and the ape becomes self-aware and mankind is born pretty much as we know it.
Okay, so we now have Adam and Eve, naked and scared. God says "you've chosen (did they, or did he push them?) free will, so off you go, I'm leaving you to it. Just remember there is a God, and I'm in charge - mind you still worship me and respect me, but I'm not going to ever contact you directly myself again - though I may give out pointers from time to time."
So that's it, the human race is no longer in a two way communication with God as they used to be. God has left the human experiment to go off on it's own. We all know that we need challenges to make us stronger. If God had fed and clothed us forever, we'd have never developed into what we are now. This is all God's plan. Let us carry on with our own free choices and make our way in the world.
Our own free will allows us to chose to be closer with God, and therefore to reap the benefits when we die.
Every so often though, God's message is getting mixed up. Evil people pretend to know God and fool everyone else. At these points, God steps in and sets things right.
At first it was easy, but as the world grew, a single way of worshipping God wasn't practical, so he set out a few different versions so everyone had a choice. As long as people worship him, he doesn't care.
The point is, God is a hands off manager. He said so right at the start. He uses "prophets" to help people get back on the right track, but generally talks through people silently, gently directing actions from behind the scenes. He's a big believer in free will though, as it's that concious choice which makes you worthy of a place at his side or not.
The prophets aren't a sign of God's weakness, but of mankind's. They're just there to help them stay on a rough track, one in which God is playing a generally hands off role - so people can prove themselves worthy.
I don't actually believe it, but that's how it falls - God says "let the people do things, and if they're good at it, I'll help them and reward". Think of us as pets. Your dog will think you're all knowing, all seeing and the be all and end all of existence. Yet you don't spend 100% of the time with them. Yet you can train them quickly, and you always know it was them who pissed on the carpet. Upscale that by several million degrees and you have the human/God thing
ciallkennett
Strata Poster
This is what I hate: Christians (and other religions) are allowed to say to me 'There is a God' and that is what they believe, fair enough. Yet if I said to a Christian 'There is no God', they would become defenceless and would say that I'm offensive, even though they can say to me that there is a God without me becoming offended., if that makes sense.
Surely this means that their opinion is of higher value than of mine as I am not allowed to disagree with them without offending then yet they can easily disagree with me.
Also, the Christian faith has so many loopholes to cover up what they believe. One that really gets me is that if somebody says that something in the Bible can be disproved, a Christian would go to a loop hole by saying 'Well, man was dictated the Bible by God and therefore, when man wrote it down he makes mistakes, because he is man and not God.' **** off!
Surely this means that their opinion is of higher value than of mine as I am not allowed to disagree with them without offending then yet they can easily disagree with me.
Also, the Christian faith has so many loopholes to cover up what they believe. One that really gets me is that if somebody says that something in the Bible can be disproved, a Christian would go to a loop hole by saying 'Well, man was dictated the Bible by God and therefore, when man wrote it down he makes mistakes, because he is man and not God.' **** off!
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
The problem Furie, is that no Christian will ever bring forward what you just have. It takes a non-believer to make such suggestions and even then, by majority, true believers won't consider your logic. It's skeptic style reasoning.
You comment about me needing to learn more is just... what? I need to learn more, yes... everyone does. But what was your comment supposed to mean? Learn more about what? Your very specific attempt to make something illogical logical? Nothing you've said is common Christian thinking. I'm not saying it's not a good set of ideas, it's awesome, it's just not what most Christians believe... think, feel, whatever. So what do I need to learn? And who says I'll come to the same conclusion you have?
Also, this sets off alarm bells...
You comment about me needing to learn more is just... what? I need to learn more, yes... everyone does. But what was your comment supposed to mean? Learn more about what? Your very specific attempt to make something illogical logical? Nothing you've said is common Christian thinking. I'm not saying it's not a good set of ideas, it's awesome, it's just not what most Christians believe... think, feel, whatever. So what do I need to learn? And who says I'll come to the same conclusion you have?
Also, this sets off alarm bells...
Anyone who follows the Bible (specifically the Old Testament, I'll agree that Christians are pansies comparatively with Catholicism as an exception)or the Quaran would tell you otherwise. There are very specific sets of "rules" which each of the monotheistic religions follow. And each of them vary in how strongly they believe anyone who doesn't follow these rules will suffer after death. Man made? Yes, but that's the point, it ALL is.
I think furie made some good points, many of which I am inclined to agree with. I would never have been able to write them down that well though.
I think the problem we have, as Joey pointed out, is that the logic used by believers and non-believers is different. Many non-believers don't understand the nature of God, with the whole "all-powerful" thing. Many believers don't understand, or are not willing to listen to, the (perhaps more science and observation based) logic of the atheists.
I don't think that is true at all. I think if you were to talk to the majority of people who believe in God, then they would respect your opinion and not complain at all.
Note that I say "people who believe in God", not "people who go to Church/Synagogue/Mosque every day and who have devoted their entire lives to God", because most people are not like this. It is just that these people are the ones who are seen in the public eye more often, and who get highlighted in the media.
I think the problem we have, as Joey pointed out, is that the logic used by believers and non-believers is different. Many non-believers don't understand the nature of God, with the whole "all-powerful" thing. Many believers don't understand, or are not willing to listen to, the (perhaps more science and observation based) logic of the atheists.
I don't think that is true at all. I think if you were to talk to the majority of people who believe in God, then they would respect your opinion and not complain at all.
Note that I say "people who believe in God", not "people who go to Church/Synagogue/Mosque every day and who have devoted their entire lives to God", because most people are not like this. It is just that these people are the ones who are seen in the public eye more often, and who get highlighted in the media.
Joey! What I said is the generally accepted (to varying degrees) Christian/Biblical theology.
Hard core say Adam and Eve were bad, so God let them out on their own and then issued free will to allow them to come back to him.
Moderate/conservative will allow for the evolutionary version.
Liberals will go for the allowance of other faiths.
That's what I mean by you need to learn more - you need to actually learn what the actual beliefs of the religions are. You can't just read about it, you have to experience and discuss it with those who have faith (generally those who have studied their theology). I spent years doing bible studies, discussions on the bible, discussions on faith and "friendly chats" with priests, vicars and church wardens. I know how people in the Church of England work exceptionally well, I know the way the thought process works and I understand their beliefs. I know Catholicism less well, but I've still experienced it a fair amount (and not just weddings and funerals) and discussed faith with Catholics. I've likewise had theological discussions with Muslims.
I'm certainly not close to being an expert on religion or theology, but I have learnt enough to be able to understand and not to just cast things off as "religious rubbish". Believe it or not, a religion does not survive two thousand years (or thirteen hundred, or six thousand) without an answer to questions such as the one you (Joey) posed. You may not be happy with the answer as an atheist, but the religion does have these answers.
Most people following a religion are not just doing it blindly and simply believing everything the bloke at the front is spouting at them. This is what you need to learn, the answers that the religion has already put forward that followers accept as a sensible answer.
The bible is a sometimes taken literally, but most faiths take their religious texts as a guideline, and the interpretation is down to individual priests/religious sects. I did mention this early - it's man's inability to come to a consensus on the actual interpretation which leads to conflict. However, it may just be God is making sure everyone has a way to worship him - it's just that people haven't yet fathomed this out...
Hard core say Adam and Eve were bad, so God let them out on their own and then issued free will to allow them to come back to him.
Moderate/conservative will allow for the evolutionary version.
Liberals will go for the allowance of other faiths.
That's what I mean by you need to learn more - you need to actually learn what the actual beliefs of the religions are. You can't just read about it, you have to experience and discuss it with those who have faith (generally those who have studied their theology). I spent years doing bible studies, discussions on the bible, discussions on faith and "friendly chats" with priests, vicars and church wardens. I know how people in the Church of England work exceptionally well, I know the way the thought process works and I understand their beliefs. I know Catholicism less well, but I've still experienced it a fair amount (and not just weddings and funerals) and discussed faith with Catholics. I've likewise had theological discussions with Muslims.
I'm certainly not close to being an expert on religion or theology, but I have learnt enough to be able to understand and not to just cast things off as "religious rubbish". Believe it or not, a religion does not survive two thousand years (or thirteen hundred, or six thousand) without an answer to questions such as the one you (Joey) posed. You may not be happy with the answer as an atheist, but the religion does have these answers.
Most people following a religion are not just doing it blindly and simply believing everything the bloke at the front is spouting at them. This is what you need to learn, the answers that the religion has already put forward that followers accept as a sensible answer.
The bible is a sometimes taken literally, but most faiths take their religious texts as a guideline, and the interpretation is down to individual priests/religious sects. I did mention this early - it's man's inability to come to a consensus on the actual interpretation which leads to conflict. However, it may just be God is making sure everyone has a way to worship him - it's just that people haven't yet fathomed this out...
Steven
Giga Poster
You think of all the idiotic things I have done.
Went down a hill on my bike, ended up in hospital, jumping in head first into a knee hight water, ended up in hospital again. I should have broken my neck or something at least once. But all I have to show is epilepsy and a broken nose for falling flat on my face (walking at the time).
I praise god in my own way. I don't have time for any big sharriad or anything. But I believe what I want to believe.
Went down a hill on my bike, ended up in hospital, jumping in head first into a knee hight water, ended up in hospital again. I should have broken my neck or something at least once. But all I have to show is epilepsy and a broken nose for falling flat on my face (walking at the time).
I praise god in my own way. I don't have time for any big sharriad or anything. But I believe what I want to believe.
A
Anonymous
Guest
You all believe in the wrong guy, it's the Flying Spaghetti Monster that is the big cheese.