Dive machines, old or new?

[LiveForTheLaunch]

I think some of you have me wrong. I'd love to ride Oblivion, but I still stand by my point that I'd rather have a coaster like SheiKra, which is the same as Oblivion, only bigger, minus the theming, plus some inversions and another decent sized drop. I don't see why that is so hard to understand.

And it's retarded for people to say SheiKra and Griffon are forceless. The drops are like, the exact same thing with some more height thrown in, so how is that going to be forceless? It'd have the same amount of forces, if not more, plus all of the courses around the actual layout (oh yeah, a layout, which Oblivion doesn't have).

 

[Uncle Arly]

Since I've only ridden old, I can't make a fair choice.

But I think new would clinch it...since it's Oblivion plus more.

 

[MouseAT]

As for Mike's assessment of Griffon, it's pretty well known that he hated just about everything over here. Take his views with a giant chunk of salt.

Except in this case, I think he's right on the money. Griffon was a reasonable ride, but nothing special. Oblivion's drop completely owns Griffons. Here endeth the lesson.

Griffon's only saving grace is that it's a longer ride with more elements. That makes it a slightly better ride than Oblivion overall, but none of the elements are particularly memorable. Put a few more elements on the end of Oblivion and you'd have the world's best dive machine.

 

[MouseAT]

Each to their own. You seem to be confusing other people's opinions with mine. Different people have different points of view. I've ridden both Griffon and Oblivion, and take each ride as I find it.

Personally I think Griffon's longer layout makes for a better overall ride than Oblivion. However, I think Griffon's drop is weak compared with Oblivion's, and that lets the ride down overall. The only reason Griffon wins out here is because Oblivion is too damn short. Oblivion's drop is damn near perfect.

Stick a couple of extra elements on Oblivion, and you solve the problem with it being too short. It wouldn't even have to be as long as Griffon, it just needs to be something slightly longer than drop, overbank, end. Once you take away the length advantage of the newer dive machines, Oblivion wins out, IMO. Easily. Maybe Sheikra is better. I've yet to ride that one, so I'll reserve judgement for the time being.

As for majority opinion, I can't say I've ever been one to go along with popular opinion. I take each ride as I find it. Hell, I still think Stealth is better than Kindga Ka, and that Rita is the best of the four accelerator's I've ridden.

 

[Smithy]

Could the train size have anything to do with it? I doubt it, but could be a possibility.

And then, the fact that it's in a tunnel, and could possibly be a sharper pull out may have something to do with it.

Although I'm a neutral as I don't really have an opinion either way on this one.

 

[Screaming Coasters]

And it's retarded for people to say SheiKra and Griffon are forceless. The drops are like, the exact same thing with some more height thrown in, so how is that going to be forceless?

Given the Dive Machine has been around for 10 years now, plans do change from the original. The drop on the new DM's start to pan out higher than they do on Oblivion and G5. You can see this quite clearly. Maybe because they are more 'vertical' than Oblivion but I'm sure an inch difference wouldn't do too much on that front.

My reckoning on the drawn-out thing is because of the added detached car. It needs to be stretched out a bit so you don't end up with an overspeed at the back.

Like I said before though, I'm not fully decided until my butt has done a circuit on Sheikra.

 

[Uncle Arly]

My reckoning on the drawn-out thing is because of the added detached car. It needs to be stretched out a bit so you don't end up with an overspeed at the back.

Gonna be n00bish here. But what's this about the "detached" car?

 

[wash]

What a silly, patriotic thread this has become...

 

[Screaming Coasters]

I suppose in the original design, the idea behind the fixed car meant that everybody would point down so they get the same effect in every seat.

Wash - if thats all you got to post then don't make yourself look like a pedal, just piss off.

 

[walker1104]

I think the whole point of a Dive Machine is to focus on the drop, which is why Oblivion is so good. But I still prefer SheiKra because it still has the drop, yeah it might not be underground in a hole but it's still vertical, but then it does other things after the drop.

So I prefer new ones.

 

[Mike]

As for Mike's assessment of Griffon, it's pretty well known that he hated just about everything over here. Take his views with a giant chunk of salt.

Just like how you're also supposed to take everybody else's opinion with a chunk of salt? Everybody has their own opinion on everything, and nobody is ever going to totally, 100%, agree with somebody else.

For the record, I NEVER said Griffon was forceless.
I said that, I [feel] Oblivion is a more forceful ride. Maybe, if you looked at Marcus' and Loefet's force gadget thing, then Griffon probably is the more forceful ride, but that doesn't really matter.

As for me hating everything, then you're a very long way from the truth. Even in my post in this topic, I described Griffon as "very good", which you seemed to have missed, and I've even voted to preferring Griffon (newer) over Oblivion (older)!
Also, if I hated everything, how come 9 out of my top 10 coasters are from America?

 

[Uncle Arly]

Cheers UC. That makes sense.

 

[Snoo]

Maybe, if you looked at Marcus' and Loefet's force gadget thing

I don't have a force gadget?


For once, this argument isn't dissolving into meaningless babble. It actually has a constructive argument.

 

[Mike]

So basically you're saying that your view doesn't matter...?

Not necessarily, as it matters to me what I think (well.. obviously)
If it matters to you what my opinions are, then that's up to you.

 

[Mike]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but please point out the bit where I apparantely "called you out".
Before you reply, please note that I haven't used your name in any of my posts in this thread. And where I said "you're", that was to everybody.

 

[Tom]

So I think the drop should be the focus of the ride. On Sheikra and Griffon, the ride would still be a good ride without the 90 degree drop whereas Oblivion and G4 would be rubbish without the 90 degree drop.

So basically what you're saying is that because SheiKra and Griffon can be good rides without the drop, they should be considered "less" of Dive Machine?

Stupid logic.

Late reply...

Didn't phrase that post correctly. I meant to say that dive machines are focused on the drop and because Sheikra/Griffon's drops are only a small portion of the ride the designers can make the majority of the ride (ie everything else) better and not spend as much time making the drop scary.

My experiences on Oblivion and Sheikra were different. On Oblivion I was immesley terrified of the drop whereas on Sheikra the drop was more...meh. Because the designers had spent more time thinking about the drop on Oblivion (adding the massive tunnel, the smoke and the hype all around the queue) the drop packed more of a punch.

 

[Screaming Coasters]

^ Tom, he knew exactly what you meant, he just wanted to be difficult.

 

[Tom]

What I don't understand is why you stated that "So I think the drop should be the focus of the ride" when that's neither necessary nor, as SheiKra and Griffon prove, true.

Well the main thing Busch Gardens are going to say when they market Griffon/Sheikra is 'This ride has a 90 degree drop'. So when I ride it that's gonna be the main thing I remember about it so if the drop is good then I'll think the ride is good.

Also, when I ride Sheikra/Griffon it has a mixture of pretty good elements. Whereas Oblivion/G5 simply has one incredible drop. I'd rather have one element which I'll remember for ages as opposed to some pretty good elements which won't be remembered as well.

 

[Tom]

The reason I think Oblivion's drop is better than Sheikras is that there is so much hype with all the vdeios telling you you're not going to make it, the evil black pit of death etc. On Sheikra/Griffon, you get nothing of that and therefore aren't anticipating a terrifying drop. Because I wasn't anticipating a terrifying drop on Sheikra I didn't get one whereas on Oblivion, I was crapping myself on the lift hill and the drop was (and is) one of the scariest drops I have ever been on.

Another thing that might be worth considering is that I rode Sheikra bofer I rode Oblivion and I rode both of them before joining CF so I could have a completely unbiased point of view about them. Even back then I still considered Oblivion more terrifying than Sheikra.

During this thread, I haven't considered the rest of the layouts properly and the newer ones win in that field. If both rides were built at the same time, I would obviously side with Sheikra/Griffon but seeing as there is an age difference of about 6 years I give more wiggle room to Oblivion because it was basically a prototype.

But these are just my views...

 

[madhjsp]

During this thread, I haven't considered the rest of the layouts properly and the newer ones win in that field. If both rides were built at the same time, I would obviously side with Sheikra/Griffon but seeing as there is an age difference of about 6 years I give more wiggle room to Oblivion because it was basically a prototype.

That makes no sense. Are you implying that just because Oblivion is older than Sheikra and Griffon that it should be granted some kind of handicap when comparing the two? By that logic, Astroland's Cyclone is still the best wooden coaster in the world because cable lifts and prefabs weren't available technologies back then, right?

You're defeating your own argument that Oblivion is better by conceding that you would prefer the Griffon if both were built at the same time. If Oblivion was truly the better ride, the time in which it was built would make no difference.