Accident at Alton Towers

[ECG]

It'd be interesting to know how far that override goes. I wonder if that would refer to the idea of a ride reset losing track of which blocks are occupied as a few of us have speculated previously, or whether it's the ability to take fully manual control and specifically tell the system "go ahead and move this train into the block that is marked as having a train already in it".

Even in a full manual mode, I'd have thought the latter should result in the ride system shutting down, or the train refusing to move.

I've talked with a few of my friends at Maurer and Zierer and all three confirm that it's not possible to send a train into an occupied block even in manual mode. So unless Gerstlauer is doing things much differently than either of those two companies, that all build similar coasters, overriding the system that knows there's a stalled train in the block simply isn't possible.
BTW - All three are engineers that do final programming and testing before handing new rides over to parks.

 

[Screaming Coasters]

It'd be interesting to know how far that override goes. I wonder if that would refer to the idea of a ride reset losing track of which blocks are occupied as a few of us have speculated previously, or whether it's the ability to take fully manual control and specifically tell the system "go ahead and move this train into the block that is marked as having a train already in it".

When a roller coaster is overridden, the ride still remains in fully automatic mode. An operator cannot simply turn a coaster into manual, they just wont know the interface passwords. Usually, you can only override stations when the ride is in automatic mode. In manual mode, you literally operate the coaster by opening and closing blocks, and moving trains about yourself by enabling the kickers / lift. Only engineers would know and understand how to do this. Its almost impossible for an operator to figure out and do by themselves. Very unusual to see that a lift hill could potentially have been overridden, I've not heard of that setup before?

 

[silenthillXD]

Thorpe Park Mania are reporting that Speed at Oakwood is closed at the moment too. Any news on Rage?

 

[GuyWithAStick]

Or saw?

Sent from my VS840 4G using Tapatalk

 

[owentaylor121]

^Read one page back.

 

[elephant58]

So, Merlin is considering scrapping The Smiler after the series of problems since it opened. Another Vertigo story?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...-as-bosses-consider-scrapping-The-Smiler.html

I wouldn't trust the Telegraph for any factual information. But I suppose that removing the ride must be at least a 'consideration'.

 

[Mysterious Sue]

I've talked with a few of my friends at Maurer and Zierer and all three confirm that it's not possible to send a train into an occupied block even in manual mode. So unless Gerstlauer is doing things much differently than either of those two companies, that all build similar coasters, overriding the system that knows there's a stalled train in the block simply isn't possible.
BTW - All three are engineers that do final programming and testing before handing new rides over to parks.

But surely there must be occasions where the break blocks themselves have errors and show a train has passed when it hasn't. Sensors are fairly temperamental pieces of kit. It's not too much of a jump to imagine a scenario where you'd want to force a train through/clear the sensor error with an individual or whole system reset. Common sense says that should be possible somehow.

 

[nemesis_guy]

I've talked with a few of my friends at Maurer and Zierer and all three confirm that it's not possible to send a train into an occupied block even in manual mode. So unless Gerstlauer is doing things much differently than either of those two companies, that all build similar coasters, overriding the system that knows there's a stalled train in the block simply isn't possible.
BTW - All three are engineers that do final programming and testing before handing new rides over to parks.

But surely there must be occasions where the break blocks themselves have errors and show a train has passed when it hasn't. Sensors are fairly temperamental pieces of kit. It's not too much of a jump to imagine a scenario where you'd want to force a train through/clear the sensor error with an individual or whole system reset. Common sense says that should be possible somehow.

ECG^ For example didn't that wild mouse ride accident in Lightwater Valley happen when it was being manually controlled? I'm sure I read the technician was manually operating the ride to try and get all the trains back in to the station. I know the manufacturer isn't exactly as big as Gerst but it makes sense as Sue said for this to be possible somehow.

 

[sparky2u]

Or saw?

Sent from my VS840 4G using Tapatalk

I read Saw has closed. any of the Euro Fighter coasters around the world been closed while Smiler is being looked at.

 

[Screaming Coasters]

I've talked with a few of my friends at Maurer and Zierer and all three confirm that it's not possible to send a train into an occupied block even in manual mode. So unless Gerstlauer is doing things much differently than either of those two companies, that all build similar coasters, overriding the system that knows there's a stalled train in the block simply isn't possible.
BTW - All three are engineers that do final programming and testing before handing new rides over to parks.

Umm, which people have you spoken to? Thats a load of complete bull. The engineers at Chessington used to do something called "train bumping" all the time on Rattle Snake and Dragons Fury, which is when you put a coaster into manual mode and make the train behind enter the same block as the one in front to pack them tight for over night storage. Both of those are Maurer AG rides. You can even do it in Automatic mode on the Vampire Ride, but I'm not willing to share how as it will give operators ideas.

This is from experience. I've seen them do it countless times. Its TOTALLY possible and happens all the time as standard practise in all sorts of tests and close down procedures.

 

[ems991]

That Saw thing is interesting, is it possible that is just Merlin covering their backs on the off chance?
Also I was wondering as Thorpe Park is also Merlin would they have relatively the same safety protocols in place as Alton Towers or are they put in place as separate parks? As if HSE are forcing Alton to close whilst they look at that say, would there not be call for Thorpe Parks emergency procedures to be looked at?

 

[Howie]

^^I can't see it being renamed to be honest, as it's already a successful and widely known brand and as some other people have said on here, in a year or two, people won't be talking about the crash.

I wouldn't say that. In 1997 we had an "accident" here in Belgium with Sirocco (now Psyké Underground) when the train "valleyed" on the top of the loop. There where no mayor injuries at all, but the ride is still well-known for the incident over here, even though it's been 18 years now.

Whilst I get what you're saying, the difference is, is that the Smiler is a very expensive coaster, which is probably known throughout Europe and possibly even further. I just can't see Merlin rebranding something that has made them a lot of money and most likely will in the future.

Maybe not a complete re-brand, but some of the slogans will simply have to go.
'Join us'
'You belong to The Smiler'
'Get corrected'
'Marmalization complete' ffs?

No. Just no.

 

[Pierre]

So hang on, the train stalled on the lift hill for ten minutes while the empty car in front had valleyed?

I know this sound really gruesome of me but surely if some bystanders saw a train being released into a section of track where an empty train was valleyed, SOMEONE must have filmed it. Instead we only have videos shortly after impact?

I'm not saying it would have been right to film it, but it would have been filmed (just as the aftermath was) if it was expected.

Just a thing on that statement from the ex-employee too... she sounds like she just didn't enjoy working at Alton Towers and has used this as an opportunity to take a swipe at management. I mean she sees less direct interaction with guests as a BONUS, you're working in a **** theme park what do you expect to be doing?

You can't expect Alton Towers to spend time/money training these people on every eventuality. I'm not trained to deal with a bomb scare and I work in a stadium? I'm also not trained for a terror attack, a flash flood, or a riot but they are eventualities that could happen. The retention rates would not increase enough for AT to warrant every individual staff member receiving this additional training and therefore relevant superior staff are trained instead (which she praises).

 

[llamafarmer]

When a roller coaster is overridden, the ride still remains in fully automatic mode. An operator cannot simply turn a coaster into manual, they just wont know the interface passwords. Usually, you can only override stations when the ride is in automatic mode. In manual mode, you literally operate the coaster by opening and closing blocks, and moving trains about yourself by enabling the kickers / lift. Only engineers would know and understand how to do this. Its almost impossible for an operator to figure out and do by themselves. Very unusual to see that a lift hill could potentially have been overridden, I've not heard of that setup before?

But engineers were present, weren't they? So this could have happened?

 

[bellhop]

I have a question which may be of no relevance and I may be clutching at straws.
According to this video, trains can be reversed down the lift hill - presumably for evac purposes.

- Oh, it appears I can't post videos, I've had to create a new account as I was unable to access my old one. Usual YouTube address plus watch?v=l3e6Jb4YjXE for video.

This is pure speculation and I'm not making any suggestion that this is what happened, i'm just curious. Is it at all possible that the operator/engineer in control could have attempted to reverse the lift hill to bring the train full of guests back down to an evac point, but the train crested instead? I don't know where the train was stuck on the lift hill before it was deployed, but I'm assuming it was near the top?

- Edit, first person account from a rider taken from one of the many news stories:

Ms Singh told the Sun they saw several test cars being sent ahead of them and were held at the start of the rollercoaster.
"We finally went up and were kept at the top for 10 or 15 minutes chatting, joking that we were the guinea pigs,” she said.

Could this be a plausible explanation?

 

[Howie]

The Ashbourne Telegraph are now reporting a statement from Alton Towers that says they will re-open in the next few days, with "additional safety protocols" in place on all their multi-car coasters.

The Smiler, Saw, and also now it seems Rattlesnake and Dragon's Fury at Chessie will remain closed while further investigations are carried out.

 

[Ian]

The full statement, dated today, reads as follows...

Merlin Entertainments
Since the accident at Alton Towers Resort on Tuesday afternoon Merlin Entertainments has been engaged in a thorough review and investigation of the events that led up to the incident and of its safety and operating processes. The investigation is ongoing and we are co-operating fully with the Health & Safety Executive.
The safety of our visitors is our fundamental priority. We have a strong safety record at Alton Towers and across the Merlin Group. Today we are enhancing our safety standards by issuing an additional set of safety protocols and procedures that will reinforce the safe operation of our multi-car rollercoasters. These are effective immediately.
Each rollercoaster has its own individual operating process and characteristics. Our central safety management team, together with local Park operations, will now work to implement and brief operating staff on these protocols. As a consequence, two rollercoaster rides have been withdrawn from service until the new safety protocols have been applied.
The Smiler and Saw, a similar ride at Thorpe Park, have been closed since the accident and will stay closed for the foreseeable future. We intend to complete our thorough appraisal of our safety processes at Alton Towers in the near future and plan to re-open the Park to the public in the next few days.
Nick Varney, Chief Executive of Merlin Entertainments, said:
“This has been a terrible experience for everyone involved and one we sincerely regret. Our thoughts remain with those who were seriously injured and we are doing everything we can to support them through this difficult time. It is an accident that should not have happened, and we are determined that it will never happen again.
“Whilst the investigation into the causes is continuing, we have identified a series of additional safety protocols that we are implementing immediately across our multi-car rollercoasters. These will act as an additional safeguard to further strengthen our operating and safety standards. This has been a devastating experience, and we are committed to learning the lessons from it.”

Every coaster in the Merlin chain has been reviewed with new safety protocols in mind.

The new protocols have not been revealed to the public. Anything we hear is rumour.

Only the Smiler and Saw are closed due to this incident. Other coaster closures are not related to this incident.

I think it's safe to say that the relationship between Merlin and Gerstlauer is under review.

Ultimately, it is Alton Towers who have had their reputation damaged. 99% of people do not care for the manufacturer, so if it does turn out to be a fault with Gerstlauer, it will still be Alton Towers who will get the blame in the eyes of the 99%. It's like having a BMW with a faulty airbag. The airbag might be made by somebody else but as it's in a BMW, people will wag their fingers at and blame BMW, not the airbag manufacturer.

Remember that no cause for the accident has been revealed therefore it is all speculation at this point.

Personally I doubt we will ever see a Gertslauer ride at a Merlin park ever again. It would have negative ramifications for Gerstlauer if the world's second largest theme park operator decides to avoid them.

 

[spicy]

Sky News reporting that Dragons Fury and Rattlesnake are closed until new safety protocols are put into place as well.

Strange considering they are Maurer rides that have never had any sort of incident but I guess they just can't take any risks at the moment.

 

[Chris Brown]

I have taken a step back and tried to stay as open minded as possible with regards to the cause of this accident but I feel like there have been a catalogue of staff errors that have occurred in the build up to the accident.

A brief timeline shows that the accident simply does not add up. I personally cannot see why the full train was not evacuated or even contacted by staff during the 10-15 minutes it was on the lift hill. The valleyed train meant that the full train had to be evacuated at some point and the ride shut down so why was this not done. The picture of the CCTV shows that the valleyed train could have been seen by staff in the control booth.

So many questions that need answering that im not sure we will ever get answers too which is frustrating as public opinion is fast turning against the ride. It also seems nearly everyone on facebook has a relative or friend that has been a ride OP for smiler and therefore has a full understanding of the ride and is able to completely rule out human error placing the blame completely on Gerst which is frustrating to see.

 

[Pierre]

Closed tomorrow now, hope Darren didn't put that bet on.