Keeping Orcas in captivity - Is it wrong?

[Darren B]

To end the SeaWorld debate, It's very clear that they're the industry leaders in dealing with captive orcas. They have a fantastic breeding program that means they haven't had to capture from the wild in decades, orcas that are born in captivity are unaware of the other life that exists, they're cared for in spacious tanks and given the best care available. This is the future of captive orcas, and with SeaWorlds constant progression I've no doubt that in years to come captive orcas can live a lengthy and happy life alongside their families, and caring humans.

Blackfish has highlighted some serious issues, and if SeaWorld can address and correct these issues they can survive this onslaught with their reputation and credibility intact.

Now, I've defended SeaWorld, and I'm for them housing orcas, but I can't defend this...

Look at the size of her compared to her tank.

Awful!

Lolita is the oldest orca in captivity and lives in an illegal tank at Miami Seaquarium. Her owner has been offered 1 million dollars to retire her, he refused.

Video:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaPmkL4kN48

 

[marc]

It's really heart breaking seeing those tanks etc it was the same when I saw the Clacton Pier stuff. There must be a law to get the whale away from the owner?

The only way to stop these whales being kept like this is to ban keeping them in captivity and that's what they are trying to do. It will never happen though.

It's actually easier to see these whales in the wild than it is to see a lion in the wild.

 

[Darren B]

It's really heart breaking seeing those tanks etc it was the same when I saw the Clacton Pier stuff. There must be a law to get the whale away from the owner?

The law exists but it's not enforced in Lolita's case, mainly due to the fact that the tank was already in use before the law was passed.

I can't believe the owner won't part with her, it's all about the money for him. It's estimated that she's earn't the park $160,000,000 over the past 4 decades. She's earn't the right to retire to a sea pen, if not back to the ocean where her mother and family still reside.

 

[marc]

There is nothing anyone can do then

This is what did piss me off about Blackfish, they just went for Sea World and did not cover the places that are worse.

But as you have said before it's opened the can.

 

[Darren B]

^SeaWorld is the name that is known globally, and more people can relate to it.

But you're right, Marineland Canada, Miami Seaquarium and Mundo Marino should have been mentioned. Six Flags Discovery Kingdom would get a special mention but they're done the right thing now and sold their Orca to SeaWorld San Diego.

 

[marc]

Yep agree Sea World is the biggest name and more people would have been there due to Orlando plus they have had the issues.

The film did cover the Spanish park and Sea World said it had nothing to do with them even though paper work said different.

We should know soon if their new floor will allow trainers back in during the shows or just the tanks.

 

[Darren B]

The orcas at Loro Parque are owned by SeaWorld, but the park itself is independently owned. There is always a SeaWorld trainer supervising the Loro Parque trainers though.

How about this for a picture, Dawn Brancheau (Killed by Tilikum) from when she was supervising at Loro Parque.

She's joined in the photo by the only other trainer to be killed by an orca, Alexis Martinez.

There is one park from our part of the world that doesn't attract negative attention, and that's Marineland Antibes in France. They have six orcas, no recorded incidents involving any of them, and have never had an orca die at a young age. The orca tank is filled regularly with fresh sea water and all their orcas are apparently in excellent health.

Just take a look at the size of their tank...

The biggest tank in existence, and it even puts SeaWorld's to shame.

 

[marc]

Sea World do have room to expand their tanks, not sure if this in their plans for the future.

On Blackfish they said Sea World said the whales were not theirs at that park but that was not the case. I need to watch it again tbh as was still on strong pain killers.

 

[Darren B]

The head trainer did say that the 2 parks were not affiliated, which is complete bollocks. Maybe she was trying to get around the question slightly because SeaWorld don't own the park.

If you're watching blackfish again then watch Lolita: Slave to Entertainment which I linked previously. It's shocking.

 

[marc]

Yes will do I need something to do for the next month lol.

 

[rollermonkey]

It really doesn't matter how big any of these tanks are. They cover thousands off square miles every day in the wild, not thousands of square feet. ...and that's the resident pods, let alone the distances the transient pods cover.

I honestly thought nothing of captive orcas until I saw them in Puget Sound and around Orcas Island. Seeing that opened my eyes, even without seeing Blackfish.

 

[furie]

It really doesn't matter how big any of these tanks are. They cover thousands off square miles every day in the wild, not thousands of square feet. ...and that's the resident pods, let alone the distances the transient pods cover.

I honestly thought nothing of captive orcas until I saw them in Puget Sound and around Orcas Island. Seeing that opened my eyes, even without seeing Blackfish.

First up, I don't disagree with you in terms of what you're essentially saying. These animals shoul dbe given huge amounts of space, or not kept at all.

As Joey has previously pointed out though, the whole "they cover thousands of square miles..." thing is potentially fallacious.

We don't know why they travel such huge distances, but usually it's in search of food. If there is a constant and large enough source of food in one spot, would they stay in one place. We know that they do in seal pup season in the Antarctic - where they hunt the same area for a long period.

Are they swimming for pleasure? Tourism? Food? Social meeting? We simply don't know. I'm sure that after decades of study, Seaworld could tell us

I do agree though (and have previously stated) that all you really need a small cell, toilet and regular food and you could live out the rest of your life in comfort, never having to worry about an unnatural death. It's called prison, and as these animals are self aware and of near human intelligence (maybe more so), you have to view them as essentially prisoners. Born in captivity? Babies and children born and raised in a prison. That's kind of my issue with the whole thing - but that French tank is at least a step in the right direction.

 

[marc]

They travel to hunt, to make babies and then to give birth. Each pod goes back to the same spot to give birth each year, this is how they know where to capture the babies.

The whales in captivity are not given seal to each which is what they mainly hunt. Some pods though only each fish. That's what I mean about each pod being different.

Each pod is different, the way they communicate with each other and even the way they hunt.

Only studying them in the wild lets us find out why they travel so far. It's like with the birds that migrate in the winter.

Was reading more last night about captive whales. They drill their front teeth so they cannot bite but this leads to infection.

Russia is still pulling whales out of the sea.

In order for sea world to get the information about the whale he was placed in a plastic dome, like a big bag, with air pumped in.

http://www.sacbee.com/2013/12/10/598794 ... world.html

Sea World do not want the Dawn death bought up again when they try and get permission for these moving floors. The trainer will have air tanks that they can explode in the whales mouth so it will open so they can get out.

The more you read the worse it gets tbh, but you have to be really careful what you read as animal rights are putting a lot of **** out there so keep an open mind of what is true and what is not.

There are also stats that whales born in captivity do not live as long as ones born in the wild.

 

[furie]

Yeah, finding accurate, no BS information is a nightmare with these things. Too much false stuff put out there.

They travel to hunt, to make babies and then to give birth.

Each pod is different, the way they communicate with each other and even the way they hunt.

Exactly, so if the conditions were absolutely perfect in one spot, would they need to ever travel at all?

If you compare it to human society, we have groups of nomads (and for a long time, hominid society was nomadic), but mostly now we settle. That's because we changed our landscape to suit us so we didn't need to move around any more. One spot for everything. Chances are, Orcas would do the same if they could.

However, we still enjoy freedom to go beyond the confines of our home for pleasure...

 

[nealbie]

So, all we need to provide for the orcas is a regulated "holiday" period per year away from their "work" at the parks. During which time they can go wherever they want. Seems plausible.

Problem solved!

 

[marc]

Yeah, finding accurate, no BS information is a nightmare with these things. Too much false stuff put out there.

They travel to hunt, to make babies and then to give birth.

Each pod is different, the way they communicate with each other and even the way they hunt.

Exactly, so if the conditions were absolutely perfect in one spot, would they need to ever travel at all?

If you compare it to human society, we have groups of nomads (and for a long time, hominid society was nomadic), but mostly now we settle. That's because we changed our landscape to suit us so we didn't need to move around any more. One spot for everything. Chances are, Orcas would do the same if they could.

However, we still enjoy freedom to go beyond the confines of our home for pleasure...

Who knows that's the thing. But if they stayed in the same place they would have evolved very differently over the years.

The fact is though whales like many other animals travel, just like we do.

They seem to follow the seasons and the moon which is one theory. Calm waters to give birth. It's really interesting how different the pods are.

I think there should be a zoo that keeps humans in a cage. Fed the same food everyday, do the same activities everyday. Let's see what happens, how long would they live or how long before they go insane.

 

[tks]

I think there should be a zoo that keeps humans in a cage. Fed the same food everyday, do the same activities everyday. Let's see what happens, how long would they live or how long before they go insane.

Pretty sure ITV already has the rights to the television show.

 

[marc]

Yeah the closest thing is big brother but they actually have more space than the whales do lol.

Plus they can eat when they want and walk away if they don't like someone.

 

[davidm]

Just watched Blackfish last night...

To be honest, I didn't think it really said anything particularity new or that people were not aware of (it just went after a bit of shock factor by actually showing some of the attacks). Go after any corporation (SeaWorld, Starbucks, Amazon, whoever) and you'll find some not exactly ethical behaviour everywhere, topped up with a unhealthy amount of corporate damage-limitation PR - thats all that SeaWorld were doing IMHO.

Re: the theory that poor old Tilly has a psychosis that makes him eat trainers - not buying that either ; he's a big killer whale, thats what they will do from time to time.

Should SeaWorld keep Orcas? Well I'd rather they did than small places like that Sealand or that Miami aquarium (which I'm been to about 25 years ago - spent ages playing with the dolphins, don't recall the orca at all though ).

Should anyone keep Orcas? Probably not - but I'd certainly never have seen any then.

Extend the argument to zoos in general because its the same thing... I don't particularly like zoos, but the odd one seems OK (San Diego for example ; but even there I saw big cats in cages that looked too small for them). What actually gets me every time is large birds in cages - the amount of times that I've seen these in cages so they can't fly at all is horrible - picture an orca in a box where they can't swim only float - same thing to me.

So bad zoos are bad, but zoos are the price we (as a society) pay for being able to see these animals - I could happily live without SeaWorld or Zoos or Aquariums (etc) existing but not sure "society" works that way.

 

[marc]

There is a vote being done about if you would still visit Sea World or not, and tbh Blackfish has had very little impact.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opi ... ,post.poll