Keeping Orcas in captivity - Is it wrong?

[SaiyanHajime]

I just saw this...

http://www.change.org/petitions/seaworl ... e_petition

So, your thoughts. Is it wrong to keep an Orca in captivity?

 

[marc]

When I was younger never saw a problem with it.

But going to sea world the other year I think it's wrong, the tanks are far to small and tbh no mater what they do they will never be big enough.

Making them jump through hoops is not helping to learn anything about them.

Other animals are kept in captivity for conservation and breeding but it's not the case with these. They are kept for our entertainment.

 

[Ben]

The whole of Sea World is wrong, they should just shut it, and leave Manta alone in a field to be fab.

 

[rollermonkey]

Any park that has one currently in captivity should be allowed to keep them and breed them if they can pull it off, but they need to stop collection of wild orcas. I just read the other day that some group in Russia had like 11 captured and available for sale.

There's nothing educational or natural about the way these animals are treated.

 

[gavin]

They're kept purely for one purpose: profit. There's absolutely zero conservational value, despite what the parks like to tell us, and the "educational" value is incredibly dubious.

There's really no excuse to keep them other than 'people want to see them". Own up to that, and I have slightly less of an issue with it. Don't dress it up as anything other than that though; it's grossly dishonest.

 

[BBH]

^Bingo.

That's really the purpose of any institution keeping animals in captivity - to make a profit off of the people that come to see them. If you're going to make the (extraordinarily dubious) claim that their existence in a tank is for educational purposes, then at least live up to that promise. And while you can never fully and truly simulate their own habitats, you can at least help that cause by not forcing them to perform. It's as simple as that.

Do I think animals should be wild-caught to be put in zoos or aquariums? I firmly believe the practice has to stop. Should they be allowed to be kept in those places? If you have shown that you will educate the public on a deeper level on a regular basis, then I see no harm as well as the tank is as sufficient as the available space provides. (Which has to be a damn big plot of land in the first place.)

 

[gavin]

^ The difference is that the vast majority of zoo animals are from multi-generational captive stock; they're practically domesticated. That's not the case for any whale species.

Yes, the current orca stock is 50% captive bred, but when most of that is artificial insemination, it means nothing.

They really are wild animals being made to, literally, jump through hoops for our entertainment.

As much as it disgusts me, I'm not going to get on a high horse about it if they're honest, but they're not.

Sea World is **** ing disgusting. The other parks with orcas only have them because of Sea world's supply

It's wrong on every conceivable level.

I'm going to preempt any "but we have tigers, elephants, pandas in zoos!!!" with a distinctive "you're a **** ing idiot' response.

 

[BBH]

Of course, I'm not condoning the practice of forcing them to perform for human amusement—as you said, it's wrong on every imaginable level, conservational or philosophical or otherwise. These are **** ing huge animals, and ones that shouldn't be confined in small tanks, which they unfortunately are. If, however, you have shown that you can properly care for these creatures, that you will provide them with sufficient space (a space which is far greater than any institution currently operates with), I believe that having them on display is OK.

Yet, I have not been shown by any aquarium or zoo that they have sufficient space for orcas. Belugas? Yes. Other dolphins? Yes. Hell, even porpoises or other small whales? Yes and yes. Orcas? Avoid those places like the plague.

 

[rtotheizzo17]

I think there is very little understanding of the psychology of these creatures. I think most would agree the way they were captured 50 or so years ago (strictly speaking SW here) was inhuman. That being said, if it wasn't for the SeaWorld marine parks the average person would probably never know Killer Whales existed. Look at the movie Orca. Thats how the world thought of these animals in the late 70's.

For better or worse they are top of mind, and the understanding and appreciation of these animals is there because they are on display.

The whole jump through hoops argument, at least in SeaWorld's case, is ignorant. No animal, in any of the parks are forced to do anything they are not up for. It is strictly positive reinforcement and their food intake is not dependent on any display.

Not sure what artificial insemination has to do with anything?

SeaWorld is one of the leaders in conservation. If it wasn't for Killer Whales (and all of the animals they own) in captivity they wouldn't have a program as successful as this: http://www.swbg-conservationfund.org/

To say things like the whole of SeaWorld is wrong, or SeaWorld is only looking for profit is just as ignorant as saying all gays are child touching pedophiles.

For those who care enough to look up some of the practices of SeaWorld: http://www.seaworldcares.com/caring-marine-mammals

 

[rtotheizzo17]

Posting this separate so it doesn't get lost.

There are hundreds of zoological experts that work for SeaWorld (and other parks). They have dedicated their lives to the study of these animals. Their qualifications are decades of study and work alongside these creatures, and they are inspired every day to work to promote these creatures.

What are your qualifications in this argument?

 

[gavin]

That being said, if it wasn't for the SeaWorld marine parks the average person would probably never know Killer Whales existed.

Absolute garbage.

The whole jump through hoops argument, at least in SeaWorld's case, is ignorant. No animal, in any of the parks are forced to do anything they are not up for. It is strictly positive reinforcement and their food intake is not dependent on any display.

Obviously they're not going to starve their main source of income, but when they're being trained, they absolutely DO withhold food if they don't perform the trick correectly. No, it's not the main diet that they're withholding, but it's also not "positive reinforcement", whichever way they want to spin it.

Not sure what artificial insemination has to do with anything?

They don't naturally breed well in captivity, which is, usually, a sign of contentment with captive animals. The whole "happy family" of orcas that Sea World like to display with their constant forced births is total bulls**t. They like to spin the whole "conserving the species" crap, when in actual fact, people like to fawn over baby animals, and they need to keep their supply up.

SeaWorld is one of the leaders in conservation. If it wasn't for Killer Whales (and all of the animals they own) in captivity they wouldn't have a program as successful as this: http://www.swbg-conservationfund.org/

They've been operating that fund for 10 years. How long have they been operational? They pretty much have to be seen as some kind of ecolological charity. $1 million dollars a year, as a percentage of their profits, is laughable. I'm waiting for the "it's better than nothing" argument, but that won't wash.

To say things like the whole of SeaWorld is wrong, or SeaWorld is only looking for profit is just as ignorant as saying all gays are child touching pedophiles.

I'm not even going to dignify that ridiculous analogy with a response, other than to highlight how stupid it is.

For those who care enough to look up some of the practices of SeaWorld: http://www.seaworldcares.com/caring-marine-mammals

For anyone else who's interested in the actual facts of the matter, try looking anywhere else other than Sea World's own website. Seriously, what do you expect to see on there?

There are hundreds of zoological experts that work for SeaWorld

Thanks for stating the obvious.

Their qualifications are decades of study and work alongside these creatures, and they are inspired every day to work to promote these creatures.

What's that got to do with the argument at hand, which is keeping orcas in capitivity? There are far more marine biologists who don't work for Seaworld, and if you asked them about the keeping of killer whales for entertainment, I'm sure you'd get a very different response.

What are your qualifications in this argument?

The ability to read more than what Seaworld tells me, which seems like a good start.

 

[marc]

They jump through hoops for food, they get a treat when they do it. I'm not being ignorant at all.

There was a study years ago about this and the tank size at Sea World is like the equivalent of a human living in a 5x5 cell for their lives. Is that right to let anything live like that?

 

[Darren B]

My view is a little controversial but no I don't believe it is wrong under certain circumstances.

The notion that these beautiful creatures were captured in the first place is wrong, especially as nobody was equipped to handle them back in the 1960's, and the way in which they were pulled from their families is down right cruel. Many Orca's needlessly died during the process, and those who survived quickly died in captivity as like I've stated, nobody had a real idea on how to care for them.

Now, in 2013 things are different, only the Russians are currently capturing them from the wild and other parks are breeding them which I have no problem with, these new breed of Orca's are born in captivity, born and raised with their family and by caring humans, they know no other life and to me that's fine. Take your average family pet, I have 2 Cairn terriers, their origins are from the Scottish highlands where they would run free and hunt, now they get walked 2 hours a day and spend the rest of the day in a house sleeping, eating from a bowl and wiping their arses on the living room carpet, is that cruel? No it's not. They know no other life either, they still have their hunting instincts but are happy to apply that on next doors Alsatian, they enjoy human contact and comfort and they've been domesticated, almost like the Orca's bred in captivity.

As for the myth that Orca's only perform for food, this is complete bollocks! Orca's are fed on a strict diet of varied varieties of fish, whether they perform or not they will still be fed the same. Orca's regularly refuse to perform, many shows have to be altered to compensate for this, but the they still get fed. Orca's are intelligent enough to know this. They enjoy the stimulation, yes it comes across as demeaning to us and rightly so but again, they wouldn't perform or take part in anything they wouldn't want to.

There are a few issues I have with modern captivity though, the biggest one being Lolita at Miami Seaquarium. She's one of the oldest Orca's in captivity and has been alone in the smallest Orca tank in existence since 1980, she did share her time in the 70's with another Orca in the same tank but since his death she's been alone. I don't believe it's possible to place her back into the wild, but there has to be a better solution than her remaining in her current tank for what's left of her life. I'm on my iPad at the moment but if anyone could post a picture of Lolita in her ridiculously small tank you'll see what I'm talking about.

So to sum it up, I have no problems with the way some of the parks conduct themselves with Orca's, SeaWorld for all their faults are probably the best example of how to care for Orca's, but I don't believe it was ever right to capture these beautiful creatures in the first place, but it's happened now and we have to deal with that fact. Breeding them in captivity though I'm fine with, just stop taking them from the wild, it's cruel!

 

[marc]

Ok just a question. If we did not make then perform how many people would go and see them.

 

[Darren B]

Ok just a question. If we did not make then perform how many people would go and see them.

This is a very good question, and I don't know the answer. Marineland Canada have an Orca that doesn't perform, so maybe someone who's visited the park could comment?

 

[Ben]

^It should count itself lucky if it's at Marineland and still alive.

 

[Smithy]

Ok just a question. If we did not make then perform how many people would go and see them.

I would, but then I have more of an interest in them than most people who SEE BIG WHALE GO SPLASH.

Staying away from the moral argument, Gavin's doing swimmingly well on his own.

 

[rtotheizzo17]

That being said, if it wasn't for the SeaWorld marine parks the average person would probably never know Killer Whales existed.

Absolute garbage.

The whole jump through hoops argument, at least in SeaWorld's case, is ignorant. No animal, in any of the parks are forced to do anything they are not up for. It is strictly positive reinforcement and their food intake is not dependent on any display.

Obviously they're not going to starve their main source of income, but when they're being trained, they absolutely DO withhold food if they don't perform the trick correectly. No, it's not the main diet that they're withholding, but it's also not "positive reinforcement", whichever way they want to spin it.

Not sure what artificial insemination has to do with anything?

They don't naturally breed well in captivity, which is, usually, a sign of contentment with captive animals. The whole "happy family" of orcas that Sea World like to display with their constant forced births is total bulls**t. They like to spin the whole "conserving the species" crap, when in actual fact, people like to fawn over baby animals, and they need to keep their supply up.

SeaWorld is one of the leaders in conservation. If it wasn't for Killer Whales (and all of the animals they own) in captivity they wouldn't have a program as successful as this: http://www.swbg-conservationfund.org/

They've been operating that fund for 10 years. How long have they been operational? They pretty much have to be seen as some kind of ecolological charity. $1 million dollars a year, as a percentage of their profits, is laughable. I'm waiting for the "it's better than nothing" argument, but that won't wash.

To say things like the whole of SeaWorld is wrong, or SeaWorld is only looking for profit is just as ignorant as saying all gays are child touching pedophiles.

I'm not even going to dignify that ridiculous analogy with a response, other than to highlight how stupid it is.

For those who care enough to look up some of the practices of SeaWorld: http://www.seaworldcares.com/caring-marine-mammals

For anyone else who's interested in the actual facts of the matter, try looking anywhere else other than Sea World's own website. Seriously, what do you expect to see on there?

There are hundreds of zoological experts that work for SeaWorld

Thanks for stating the obvious.

Their qualifications are decades of study and work alongside these creatures, and they are inspired every day to work to promote these creatures.

What's that got to do with the argument at hand, which is keeping orcas in capitivity? There are far more marine biologists who don't work for Seaworld, and if you asked them about the keeping of killer whales for entertainment, I'm sure you'd get a very different response.

What are your qualifications in this argument?

The ability to read more than what Seaworld tells me, which seems like a good start.

So first you deduced that the company that was privately owned, and now publicly traded was for profit (great analytical skills), then you ignore facts that while there is absolutely an entertainment factor there, there is absolutely a message of conservation as well as education.

You seem like an intelligent person, so you would probably go out and research marine mammals. The average person would not seek out information on Killer Whales, Bottle nose Dolphins, California Sea Lions, etc... What parks like SeaWorld, and other marine and zoo facilities across the world do is bring people close up with creatures that they probably never would have encountered in their life otherwise.

Do you think the artificial insemination has anything to do with the fact that other than Tilikum, there really isn't an adult male in the vicinity? Tili is fathering calves from thousands of miles away, because there would not be an interaction otherwise.

The SW-BG fund was created in 2003 to unify the mission of conservation. SeaWorld has been rescuing and rehabilitating local wildlife since its inception.

Don't be offended at my hyperbolic analogies, you aren't the only one on the internet who can scream and shout.

 

[tomahawk]

What? No argument on dolphins in captivity either? What about Sea Lions? They all do shows too, so where is the uproar with them? Just looking, and I see the Georgia Aquarium has several speices of whales and dolphins.

Personally, I see how people could get up in arms, but if they are the same people spending $85 to go to Sea World and then another $300 to swim with them, hypocrites. To say one of my most hated phrases, while they are pointing one finger at Sea World/anyone who keeps whales in captivity, four are right back at them.

If you don't like it, don't go. End of story. No one has a gun to peoples heads saying "GO SUPPORT KEEPING THESE ANIMALS IN TANKS!"

 

[gavin]

^Maybe because the topic specifically asked for opinions on killer whales in captivity. You could easily make similar arguments for dolphins and other whale species. Sealions, not so much. They're more closely related to dogs than they are whales or dolphins. They simply don't have the same level of intelligence. Plus, they breed very well in captivity. The current "stock" comes from multi-generations of captive bred animals.

they enjoy human contact and comfort and they've been domesticated, almost like the Orca's bred in captivity.

I see the point you're trying to make, but it really isn't the same thing at all. You can't domesticate a species within a generation or two; it takes much, much longer.

So first you deduced that the company that was privately owned, and now publicly traded was for profit (great analytical skills), then you ignore facts that while there is absolutely an entertainment factor there, there is absolutely a message of conservation as well as education.

I'm not ignoring any facts at all. Yes, there is a message of conservation, but that's absolutely secondary to the parks' main goal, which is profit. Of course they're going to go down the conservation and education route; it's the only way to justify their existence these days. Regardless, there is absolutely zero conservational value in keeping orcas.

You seem like an intelligent person, so you would probably go out and research marine mammals. The average person would not seek out information on Killer Whales, Bottle nose Dolphins, California Sea Lions, etc... What parks like SeaWorld, and other marine and zoo facilities across the world do is bring people close up with creatures that they probably never would have encountered in their life otherwise.

I agree, but your original point was that most people would "never have heard of" orcas without Seaworld, which is ludicrous.

Do you think the artificial insemination has anything to do with the fact that other than Tilikum, there really isn't an adult male in the vicinity? Tili is fathering calves from thousands of miles away, because there would not be an interaction otherwise.

There are currently 17 male orcas in captivity, admittedly not all of breeding age yet, but the fact that those that are are not breeding naturally speaks volumes of the overall happiness of the animals.

The SW-BG fund was created in 2003 to unify the mission of conservation. SeaWorld has been rescuing and rehabilitating local wildlife since its inception.

Great. Where's the rescue and rehabilitation of the orcas, which is what we're discussing?

Don't be offended at my hyperbolic analogies, you aren't the only one on the internet who can scream and shout.

I wasn't offended in the slightest. I was just pointing out how abjectly ridiculous it was.

I remember having this discussion a while back actually, and I'll say now what I said then. In general, I have no issues with animals in captivity. I have an issue with the duplicity of places like Seaworld pretending that keeping a species like orcas is for some kind of greater good of the species; it's a lie.