Keeping Orcas in captivity - Is it wrong?

[Darren B]

Re: SeaWorld apply to release Tilikum back to the wild

I just feel the whole argument from activists is extremely naive. What do they want? SeaWorld to stop the Shamu shows, will they? No. Never.

But for arguments sake, let's say they do stop the shows, I've posted previously what would happen, the ones that are suitable for release would be, and would probably lead a miserable life until they die, as Keiko did. The captive bred Orcas would simply be destroyed. Is that what we want? No, we don't.

What should be challenged is how SeaWorld do business, to correct the issues that the Blackfish documentary highlights. THAT is achievable.

Without a SeaWorld somebody else will fill the demand to showcase Orcas, and I'd sure as hell tell you now that they wouldn't touch the standards that SeaWorld sets.

 

[marc]

Re: SeaWorld apply to release Tilikum back to the wild

There is talk some shows will stop, the rock ones at night are most likely to stop.

There will also be less shows.

We will see anyway, but as said these whales cannot be put in the wild. Most did not come from the wild and people are forgetting that.

 

[furie]

Re: SeaWorld apply to release Tilikum back to the wild

You know what? These wanna-be animal activists piss me off.

Right Seaworld, stop your **** disgusting acts of cruelty to these marine mam... Just a a minute, PAMELA - DO THE **** WASHING WASHING UP! DON'T MAKE ME KICK YOU AGAIN!!! Sorry, where was I? Oh yeah... disgusting acts of cruelty to these marine mammals - you wouldn't treat a human like that would you?

Yeah, that **** me off, but what Gavin says is right, at least it's opened the thing up to discussion and close interrogation.

Do we need the two topics for this?

 

[marc]

Re: SeaWorld apply to release Tilikum back to the wild

Nope lol, we had one then we had this one as the story changed lol.

 

[Darren B]

Re: SeaWorld apply to release Tilikum back to the wild

There is talk some shows will stop, the rock ones at night are most likely to stop.

There will also be less shows.

We will see anyway, but as said these whales cannot be put in the wild. Most did not come from the wild and people are forgetting that.

This.

We're now onto the 2nd generation of captive bred Orcas, Orcas that are adapting to their surroundings quickly. I've no doubt that as SeaWorld progress, and the orcas become more domesticated the arguments will die out. Remember, captive orcas have done wonders in making people aware of their wild counterparts.

 

[Darren B]

Re: SeaWorld apply to release Tilikum back to the wild

Can we merge the 2 topics into Joey's, Phil?

 

[marc]

Re: SeaWorld apply to release Tilikum back to the wild

That's the problem Darren, the captive ones are not like the wild ones so we learn nothing and they don't behave the same so it's pointless.

 

[Darren B]

Re: SeaWorld apply to release Tilikum back to the wild

But the learning isn't in the shows, Marc. It's the interest that you obtain from watching them that drives you to want to know more about them. It did for me anyway. I actually loved the show, and I've kept a solid interest in orcas ever since.

 

[marc]

Yep but it's just shows and that's the argument.

These whales are kept for shows and at night are locked away in small tanks that they cannot swim in.

The whales are just there for entertainment and to make Sea World money .

The shows are not even good now as there is no trainer interaction, it's just whales jumping and splashing.

I agree it gets you interested but more people are aware of them now due to the bad press. Free Willy also got a lot of people interested.

Sea World bangs on about their conservation and learning programmes. As you say the shows are not about learning, apart from teaching the whale new tricks.

 

[Darren B]

They're not kept in enclosures they can't swim in, you're thinking of Sealand of the pacific.

They're kept in the back pools, which are actually bigger than the show pool. As for the shows, I can't argue with you, Marc. They offer little in the way of education. However, I enjoy being entertained by them; I'm not ashamed to admit that and I'll never stop going to see them. As long as they're cared for then I have no guilt. The money I give SeaWorld doesn't just line their pockets, it also goes towards providing a better state of care for the Orcas. The only issues I have with captivity now is capturing from the wild, and removing the young from their mothers in the wild and in captivity. Disgraceful.

 

[furie]

Re: SeaWorld apply to release Tilikum back to the wild

Merged the topics.

But the learning isn't in the shows, Marc. It's the interest that you obtain from watching them that drives you to want to know more about them. It did for me anyway. I actually loved the show, and I've kept a solid interest in orcas ever since.

See, I don't really have an issue with that, and it's a point that has been brought up before. However, why do you need to "make people interested in the wild animals"?

They're very interesting creatures, but they're not endangered. Learning about them is no more beneficial to anyone than learning about your dog or cat. Even worse, the kind of put th show on with your dog, and then pretend that you're learning about wolves in the wild.

Yes, you can learn more to get the truth, but it makes no difference in the world to anyone other than you have a new creature to learn about - but a creature everyone has heard of anyway. You can't even claim "animal alphabet obscure animal bragging rights"

I'd rather Seaworld closed the shows down and instead gave everyone a copy of this:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Last-Chance-See ... 009953679X

Though since the book was written, one of the animals is now believed to be completely extinct - another is extinct in the wild. Some are doing much better though, and in part it's in thanks to this book which raised awareness of critically endangered species that nobody had ever heard of.

Why learn about an abundant animal everyone has heard of which does nothing to increase conservation awareness or scientific knowledge when there are thousands of fascinating animals dying out right now?

When the current crop of Orcas die out - if it's so important people learn about them - Seaworld could convert the tank areas to a state of the art Orca education ride/centre. A mind blowing tour of the life and history of the Seaworld orcas, why they are no longer kept in captivity.

Or they could dedicate those areas to the conservation of endangered species. Imagine if they'd managed to get the Chinese blind river dolphins into those tanks before they went extinct? What an attraction that would have been, and actually useful to the world!

 

[marc]

Darren I'm not saying your wrong at all btw. Many enjoyed the shows but I now feel guilty for enjoying them.

I did not enjoy the one 6 years ago so did not see the one 3 years ago.

And yes not all the tanks are small over night but one of them is and the fact he is kept away from the others is wrong. They are social animals.

I have the same type of views as Furie and Gavin on this.

 

[Darren B]

Re: SeaWorld apply to release Tilikum back to the wild

When the current crop of Orcas die out - if it's so important people learn about them - Seaworld could convert the tank areas to a state of the art Orca education ride/centre. A mind blowing tour of the life and history of the Seaworld orcas, why they are no longer kept in captivity.

The problem with that, Phil, is that it doesn't satisfy uncultured idiots like myself.

And there will be people out there who will exploit that fact and start buying orcas from Asia and Russia, sticking them in a Dolphin tanks, thus allowing them to live in poor conditions. That also promotes capturing from the wild once again. The only way your idea works is if the Government bans the trade and capture of orcas.

 

[marc]

Tell me if you enjoy this show, for me it's 20 mins I won't get back.

http://youtu.be/as93_fvdYyk

 

[furie]

Re: SeaWorld apply to release Tilikum back to the wild

The problem with that, Phil, is that it doesn't satisfy uncultured idiots like myself.

As I've said before though "if you'd never seen a Killer Whale show, would you miss it?" At some point, the memory of the shows fades into obscurity and seems like an oddity to the next generation - like the central Manchester elephant rides they had in the 50's.

I don't have an issue with the current whales being used as entertainment, or people openly admitting to watching them for entertainment. It's in place, the animals are there, so why not?

And there will be people out there who will exploit that fact and start buying orcas from Asia and Russia, sticking them in a Dolphin tanks, thus allowing them to live in poor conditions. That also promotes capturing from the wild once again. The only way your idea works is if the Government bans the trade and capture of orcas.

I agree, it would require some kind of ban, or for there to be such an outcry that it wasn't worth another company getting them. It still wouldn't stop the sales/shows/mistreatment anyway in other countries.

 

[marc]

They are trying to ban the capture and trade of them, but they have been trying to ban whale hunting for years now as well.

 

[furie]

A ban in the US would work though as the big companies there essentially "stick to the rules". It's just the rest of the world that would ignore it :lol:

And please, everyone buy and read "Last Chance to See"

 

[marc]

R Speedwagon have pulled out as well.

I am now banned on TPR as I did not agree with supporting the Sea World parks over all this. Apparently the whole Blackfish thing is made up and not true, it's only been made to make people money. Ok so all the videos are cgi then lol. Whatever don't care.

 

[Darren B]

^WTF?

Your opinion is YOUR opinion. I swear that site is getting worse.

The thing is, Marc, even I agree the Blackfish documentary is pretty accurate, and I'm on the Pro-Captivity side of the argument. SeaWorld do a lot of things wrong, and Blackfish tapped in on that. They also do a lot of things right, and it's their responsibility to fix the bad and promote the good. Blackfish was a god send if you ask me.

 

[marc]

Yep Darren that's how stupid it is. They know people who work in the parks that say none of that stuff is correct. Blackfish is reporting on the old ways and all that stuff happened years ago and is no longer relevant.

The whole film is to make cnn money and people a film award, that's what TPR claim. I'm shocked by how small minded people are to believe that **** that's posted.

Am actually happy to be banned along with others that did no agree with them.

I am sure the trainer that was killed was killed when the current team were running the park. The same day shows were cancelled as the whales were not behaving. But as the dine with event is an extra cost it went ahead and this is where the incident happened. The whale made a mistake so was not given a reward of fish. Then a few mins later killed the trainer. All this is on video but yeah all made up and not true

Was looking for attendance figures and found a report saying that attendance has not been affected by any of the reports. That's according to Sea World anyway.