SilverArrow
Certified Ride Geek
So Merlin asked for the Hex plans back but not the Nemesis ones? I suppose this thread is named so for a reason!
2016-The Scrapheap year.
2016-The Scrapheap year.
That's fair enough but your post states a lot about what you want and what you prefer, but, the vast majority of the general public won't actually take on board the effects of a given environment as the narrative of a ride - they need to be told it, or watch it, it's a fact. I know it's different, but - I've experienced this firsthand with attractions that I've managed and designed (I'm not meaning scare so don't try and bring that up, I'm talking actual visitor attractions that I have NDA's with), but the guests didn't understand what was going on when it first opened, it was lost. With the addition of a pre show room with a narrative layover by a performer, they got it and the guest satisfaction rating soared after it.Joey said:I kind of not really sometimes fundamentally disagree with your post but not entirely so bare with me whilst I try and explain.Rides such as Hex, The Haunting, Sub-Terra NEED those pre-show rooms/scenes though or they fundamentally won't work. They're narrative builders to create an immersive experience (which is what those rides are, and nothing more), so if you don't put them in, you leave guests even more confused about what the **** has just happened...
This isn't black and white and there are exceptions, but I think if you have to put guests in front of a screen to tell them crucial information about how to board a ride, or to tell them the story because without it it just wont make sense, you're doing something wrong.
Some attractions do have complicated boarding, but arguably all of that is bad design... Either at the hands of the manufacturer of the hardware itself. Or more often, of those who designed the boarding area of a ride. Sub Terra is a messy one and I think they done a very good job considering, but just for argument's sake look aaaat, say, Zufari's **** disaster of loading area. Gates don't align with rows. Rows are poorly numbered. There's a distance not unlike crossing the Kalimari to get from the bays to the truck and a plethora of other issues plaguing a swift onload. Staff and videos or other preshow-like elements CAN aid these issues, but they arguably shouldn't have to. It should be obvious where you're going and what you're doing, regardless of whether you were paying attention.
Similarly, themed entertainment differs from other forms of entertainment because it's an entire immersive thing. I don't want to watch a **** screen, I want the environment itself to tell a story. Screens should be there as extras - like Hex's queue-line videos - not crucial pieces of information - like Hex's pre-show video. Though actually, I personally like Hex preshow video AND I think if you removed it and the octogon room, Hex really wouldn't suffer that greatly and I think to some members of the GP it may be improved, even. Yeah we might wonder why there's a log in the middle of the room, but Hex is a RIDE and it's core entertainment is the spectacle of how the hell did the room spin, not from it's narrative. Hex's queue, and general setting, even devoid of the actual pre-SHOWS tells enough of a story to make it work. You're going into this gloomy old castle, you go through a secret passage, and you end up in a creepy room that does creepy ****. That's ALL we NEED to know, really.
I'm not saying Hex would be better without preshows, I'm just saying this idea that preshows NEED to exist to explain stuff is ... Well it's lazy, in a way. And it's also misunderstanding the British audience who just doesn't really want them getting in the way of their rides.
Preshows that are done well are fab, but even the best suffer from being operationally inconsistent... I've witnessed what happens when you get a backlog on Haunted Mansion and it's the stuff of nightmares. You come out the stretching room into a sea of people... Queue-jumper anxiety breaks in and everyone cramps up close. A similar thing happens after the lifts on Gringotts. Even the pros of the industry don't seem to understand this fundamental stuff and it blows my mind.
With all due respect, as you said, it really is different. Theme parks and rides hold very, VERY different expectations from guests than other kinds of attractions. That's what I'm talking about here...Lofty said:That's fair enough but your post states a lot about what you want and what you prefer, but, the vast majority of the general public won't actually take on board the effects of a given environment as the narrative of a ride - they need to be told it, or watch it, it's a fact. I know it's different, but - I've experienced this firsthand with attractions that I've managed and designed (I'm not meaning scare so don't try and bring that up, I'm talking actual visitor attractions that I have NDA's with), but the guests didn't understand what was going on when it first opened, it was lost. With the addition of a pre show room with a narrative layover by a performer, they got it and the guest satisfaction rating soared after it.Joey said:I kind of not really sometimes fundamentally disagree with your post but not entirely so bare with me whilst I try and explain.Rides such as Hex, The Haunting, Sub-Terra NEED those pre-show rooms/scenes though or they fundamentally won't work. They're narrative builders to create an immersive experience (which is what those rides are, and nothing more), so if you don't put them in, you leave guests even more confused about what the **** has just happened...
This isn't black and white and there are exceptions, but I think if you have to put guests in front of a screen to tell them crucial information about how to board a ride, or to tell them the story because without it it just wont make sense, you're doing something wrong.
Some attractions do have complicated boarding, but arguably all of that is bad design... Either at the hands of the manufacturer of the hardware itself. Or more often, of those who designed the boarding area of a ride. Sub Terra is a messy one and I think they done a very good job considering, but just for argument's sake look aaaat, say, Zufari's **** disaster of loading area. Gates don't align with rows. Rows are poorly numbered. There's a distance not unlike crossing the Kalimari to get from the bays to the truck and a plethora of other issues plaguing a swift onload. Staff and videos or other preshow-like elements CAN aid these issues, but they arguably shouldn't have to. It should be obvious where you're going and what you're doing, regardless of whether you were paying attention.
Similarly, themed entertainment differs from other forms of entertainment because it's an entire immersive thing. I don't want to watch a **** screen, I want the environment itself to tell a story. Screens should be there as extras - like Hex's queue-line videos - not crucial pieces of information - like Hex's pre-show video. Though actually, I personally like Hex preshow video AND I think if you removed it and the octogon room, Hex really wouldn't suffer that greatly and I think to some members of the GP it may be improved, even. Yeah we might wonder why there's a log in the middle of the room, but Hex is a RIDE and it's core entertainment is the spectacle of how the hell did the room spin, not from it's narrative. Hex's queue, and general setting, even devoid of the actual pre-SHOWS tells enough of a story to make it work. You're going into this gloomy old castle, you go through a secret passage, and you end up in a creepy room that does creepy ****. That's ALL we NEED to know, really.
I'm not saying Hex would be better without preshows, I'm just saying this idea that preshows NEED to exist to explain stuff is ... Well it's lazy, in a way. And it's also misunderstanding the British audience who just doesn't really want them getting in the way of their rides.
Preshows that are done well are fab, but even the best suffer from being operationally inconsistent... I've witnessed what happens when you get a backlog on Haunted Mansion and it's the stuff of nightmares. You come out the stretching room into a sea of people... Queue-jumper anxiety breaks in and everyone cramps up close. A similar thing happens after the lifts on Gringotts. Even the pros of the industry don't seem to understand this fundamental stuff and it blows my mind.
I'm not talking about all of this as my opinion, well, I am, but I have actually experienced it in person in a working capacity.
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Joey said:...only rides - actual rides - are deemed worth the time of most guests. And more interestingly, any perceived delay to them getting on the ride is an annoyance to a large percentage of people. It doesn't matter if there is no actual delay, people THINK a pre show is holding them up, people THINK staff talking to them or batching them through are holding them up. In reality, these are meant to be distractions or throughout maximizers. But people just feel like staff are wasting their time, like as if the ride ahead is just waiting for them empty.
Robbie said:I think part of the problem with the first section was that people weren't quite sure what was going on and were too busy looking around and trying to take it in to pay attention to the mad scientist guy.
It did indeed slow down the whole attraction as people were dawdling. Maybe it was just the day I saw it, but I got the impression my fellow guests just wanted a ride and were confused by all the other stuff. Just like they are on Sub-Terra, actually.
Okay, I'm no more stating opinion as fact than you or anyone else and I'm really getting tired of being told that I am, because it's just derailment to undermine my point. The issue you, and others, have with what I say is that it's kinda off the wall at times and it's often theoretical maybes mistaken as absolutes, and I guess that's FINE because that's my problem with how I conduct myself. It's very, very rare that anything I say is black and white and yet most people take it as such, because that's just the nature of text. But to me, it's pointless having a discussion unless I'm going to explore an idea and learn something from my own waffling, and the challenges presented by others. So, ya know, that. But...Lofty said:But, with all due respect, I've been involved in the design process of rides that have pre shows Joey, so I'm actually correct in what I'm saying. I'm not allowed to openly state what I've been involved with (you know how much NDA's are bastards), or I would state it. The fact of the matter is - pre shows do work for attractions that need them to convey an intricate narrative layover.
Unless, of course, you're stating that the use of a pre show is by the means of a bad designer?
At the end of the day, Joey, your opinion just differs from other people's and that's all fine, but stating it as fact is where I have a slight problem with it as it becomes derogatory towards other people on the website, some of which might have a better working knowledge of what your opinion states otherwise.
Yes, in general yes, I don't think anyone would disagree. But I think Spiderman style "pre shows" that are more queue-shows that are not force fed to guests, not masquerading as part of the main event, but rather as a queue-enhacement, are usually a better idea. A recent Merlin example of a absolutely diabolical pre-show was Zufari's. I say was, because now it's a queue-show. And despite the actors best efforts to keep people in there, most guests (me included) just walk straight through because they came to a theme park to go on rides. I'm glas it's gone on a personal level, but it also was a major queue-anxiety creator... Even on Hex, where it doesn't matter if someone pushes in front because you're all on the same cycle, most guests don't know that and I've witnessed arguments between guests because of it. No pre show keeps guests in their original order, and that's a HUGE irritant for guests. The bunching up that occurs in wide queues, the stress when someone stops at a shop in the middle of a queue... All this crap is avoidable, unnecessary stress to a guests' day. And, sorry to do a Lofty here, but unless you've witnessed that day after day through the hot summer months, you probably don't realise how awful it is.I think as long as the pre-show is informative and well done and doesn't actually cause a real delay then it's not an issue and is preferable. It may not be perceived by all guests as such, but it's still better than additional "dead" queueing times.
Erm what? I was littarly in the Blackpool Tower yesterday and the 4D film was great, it's not meant to be a pre-show. It's just so you don't have a large line of people waiting for the lifts. And it definitely isn't a holding area, it was 100% a 4D short film/clip.Robbie said:I do think pre-shows work, but Merlin aren't very good at them and I'm not sure Alton Towers is the place to do them. 90% of Alton's attractions nowadays involve a winding queue line then straight onto a ride, and something like Hex confuses people. There's also the fact that whereas Disney (say) wait until everyone's in the room before starting, Merlin have films going as you walk in and this is a crucial difference - I honestly think a lot of people don't realise that film that's running is telling a story or making a point about loading. It's about pace and often Merlin just dump you in a room with no explanation.
Beyond AT, look at the Merlin Tower at Warwick - it was entirely pre-show! Two rooms building to a climax that wasn't there. At Blackpool Tower the 4D film is no longer 4D and is just treated as a place they put you while the next lift is coming down. With these experiences it's no wonder the General Public get confused.
That's good and how it should be. Went during the Illuminations and it was a 2D film and the staff couldn't get us through quick enough, with the words "you'll be able to go up the Tower in a few minutes but first you have to watch this short film."owentaylor121 said:Erm what? I was littarly in the Blackpool Tower yesterday and the 4D film was great, it's not meant to be a pre-show. It's just so you don't have a large line of people waiting for the lifts. And it definitely isn't a holding area, it was 100% a 4D short film/clip.
That's a shame you didn't get to see the film, as it's rather good but I can see how on busy days it would be a problem.Robbie said:That's good and how it should be. Went during the Illuminations and it was a 2D film and the staff couldn't get us through quick enough, with the words "you'll be able to go up the Tower in a few minutes but first you have to watch this short film."owentaylor121 said:Erm what? I was littarly in the Blackpool Tower yesterday and the 4D film was great, it's not meant to be a pre-show. It's just so you don't have a large line of people waiting for the lifts. And it definitely isn't a holding area, it was 100% a 4D short film/clip.
Sorry, to be clear - we saw the film, but it was in 2D and without the effects, and there was only 6 of us. I've seen it a few times before but never with such half-hearted can't-be-arsed disdain from the staff as on that day. Thinking about it, it was the Gift Shop that they kept trying to direct everyone to.owentaylor121 said:That's a shame you didn't get to see the film, as it's rather good but I can see how on busy days it would be a problem.Robbie said:That's good and how it should be. Went during the Illuminations and it was a 2D film and the staff couldn't get us through quick enough, with the words "you'll be able to go up the Tower in a few minutes but first you have to watch this short film."owentaylor121 said:Erm what? I was littarly in the Blackpool Tower yesterday and the 4D film was great, it's not meant to be a pre-show. It's just so you don't have a large line of people waiting for the lifts. And it definitely isn't a holding area, it was 100% a 4D short film/clip.