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World Firsts @ Alton !

OfficialAltonTowers

Roller Poster
I know this is probably an old debate, but i cant seem to get why people compare World First Ride types at Alton Towers, to their bigger, better, and newer siblings. This is mainly because Alton World Firsts are like a prototype or a trial of what the ride CAN do, and how well it can do it, theres no point Building a Montu Sized invert for the worlds first inverted coaster, or a Shiekra style dive coaster for the worlds first vertical drop coaster, a Tatsu sized flyer for the worlds first flying coaster, because the technology wasn't proven back then.

No one knew if Nemesis was going to shear from its tracks on the first run arround, or that oblivion wasn't going to fall of the top dangerously or stall at the bottom of the tunnel, or that airs cars would make it all the way arround a track without dissintergrating. People had a good idea, but no one knew for sure.

My point to this rant, is that why do we constantly go arround comparing bigger, better, faster, more technologically advanced coasters to worlds first gambles, it annoys me to a point when people say that Tatsu is better than air because air doesn't do any loops, (of a kind), and the same with Oblivion and Sheikra, or Nemesis and Montu or Alpengiest. Furthemore in a few years time when americans have designed and built a coaser that features a 50ft freefall drop section instead of a 10ft drop section we will all be turning arround and saying Th13teen is/was sh*t.

Why cant we see rides for what they are, and not what we want them to be ? Especially on worlds firsts, we can moan and whimper all we want but Oblivion isn't getting any longer, Air isn't getting any faster, and Nemesis isn't getting any taller. (partly due to the above tree height resrictions and the Forestry removal commitee not allowing any poor trees to be cut down to make any room for bigger better rides).

So when you come to rate the amazing thing that you have just experienced, take it for how it made YOU feel, what happens to you heart, your eyes, your mouth and voice as you are hung over the edge of oblivion slowly falling to your impending doom, or soaring through the air flying like a bird. Think upon it long and hard of what your body has just been put through, and that there is no other thing on earth that can make you feel the same way at that very split seccond in time.

------

Moreover to back up my point, you can also appreciate the prowess and beauty of the machine in the foreground as you stand in awe gawking at the track, twisted steel/wood shaped and moulded into a peice of artwork.

I will always take these things of majestic beauty and fear for what they are, i cannot compare Nemesis to Deuling Dragons, Montu or Alpengeist; neither can i compare Air to Tatsu or Manta, Oblivion to Sheikra, or even Th13teen to any other ride, as they are all individual beasts each of an individual nature and theme, and thats what does it for me....





... This isnt realy a question any more, nor a forum topic more like a small book, but comment away as i am interested to hear your veiws and oppinions on this. I hope that you have enjoyed reading,

With Love


OAT (<<< Lol Yummm Oat's)
 

Ben

CF Legend
Um, I'm pretty sure Nemesis wasn't a World's first, and that people on a whole still quite like it.

Oblivion's still really well liked as well...

Air isn't too well liked, but, that is crap. I'm PRETTY sure they weren't too worried about the trains disintegrating though, this isn't space travel...

I don't really have more to add then that.
 

Ian

From CoasterForce
Staff member
Administrator
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I don't think for one second anybody disregards the fact that Alton Towers were brave enough to experiment with world first ride types.

You've posted a passionate, unequivocal post so I feel bad for answering it in just a few paragraphs.

Although I love Alton Towers' coasters, when something is succeeded, it's usually for the better. A 2010 BMW is better than a 1990 BMW. A flat screen HD telly is better than a massive analogue one.

Alton Towers "world firsts" are text book/showroom examples. Similar rides at other parks are the same, just in prettier dresses.
 

Nemesis Inferno

Strata Poster
we will all be turning arround and saying Th13teen is/was sh*t.

I'll think you find the majority are already saying this ;)


Nemmie is definitely not a world's first (a Batman came alone in 93), and is still beloved by many...

Oblivion is certainly the best out of the 3 DMs I've done.

I think Air is under-rated. And I prefer it to Tatsu as it didn't try to rip my legs off.

So really, it seems that what you think seems to be going on isn't really in such a wide array as you may think.

People are going to compare similar rides regardless of if they're prototypes or not. In 2012 half of the people on here will be comparing Raptor and LC12. Because that's how we gauge what we individually term as 'better'.

Sometimes the older rides did what we prefer 'better' than any of the newer ones can do, maybe we just like what one version of it does in comparison to another.

It's all personal opinion... Just like every other "which coaster is better" arguement.
 

OfficialAltonTowers

Roller Poster
Great point Ian, in argument to you however, do you think that the fact that a 1990 car may be the first of its breed and is special in its own way, never mind how good its bigger brothers are, it is still worth appreciating the orrigional peice as a feat of Science, engerneering and skill...
 

Ian

From CoasterForce
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Administrator
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^ That's the point I thought I made. We love the originals, like we love our mothers, but it's the offspring that will go on to further life.

Ergh, so metaphorical.

Nemesis Inferno said:
we will all be turning arround and saying Th13teen is/was sh*t.

I'll think you find the majority are already saying this ;)
Who exactly? The drop is innovative but the overall whole ride experience is still below par. I used to think that Oblivion was a one-trick pony, but now Thirteen takes that title.
 

Nemesis Inferno

Strata Poster
Ian said:
Nemesis Inferno said:
we will all be turning arround and saying Th13teen is/was sh*t.

I'll think you find the majority are already saying this ;)
Who exactly? The drop is innovative but the overall whole ride experience is still below par. I used to think that Oblivion was a one-trick pony, but now Thirteen takes that title.

Entirely depends who you talk to... Usually though it's the people who despise Merlin for some reason and think they are the devil...

Probs majority was the wrong wording... 'Some' is better... But even then the comment was very tongue-in-cheek...
 

Tom

Hyper Poster
Being the first of a kind is special, and people do respect that, though often only in the short term. Being special because it's the first of a kind is a gimmick - Alton is a bad example because the rides in question happen to be VERY good - and in the long term, people will want the generally better new rides. Have a look at Ian's topic about gaming before RCT. That is fascinating and is very special and I'd love to try it, but in the long run, RCT is better, and so I'll use that.
 

OfficialAltonTowers

Roller Poster
Ok, for Th13teen I will make a special exception, I think this ride was definately below par for all aspects, I mean why do they even have a rather large drop, only to then hit trims on the first hill, its pointless, and its not really beautifull and it dosnt roar.

Thirteen is Below par, but hey due to the brilliant marketing of Alton Towers it made them tons of proffit, th13teen will carry on being a big attraction in 2011 and will attract he crowds, even if it is rather poor people will still queue for up to 2 hours to ride a kiddy coaster. All due respect to Alton.

This is why i think Th13teen is rather clever as it was a great money spinner and alton knew that when they signed on the dotted line.

And as i mentioned we would all have loved a woodie, or even a big steel hyper coaster running through the valley, but those damn trees havnt grown legs yet and wont move, and the tree huggers at number 10 wont let us chop any down, so we ended up with th13teen...


Also i never quite explained why i started on this rant, if you look at the ranks of Alton coasters on Coasterforces own ranking system amongst others, (youtube is a great rescource for finding out what people think about things), at least 5 or so comments are that "xxxxx in america is better", and if you enlarge the scale say theres 50 overall reviews, and 5 of them are "xxxxx in america is better ..." it boils down to mean that 10% of the overall coaster riding community think this, but its more likely that it depends on the ride type, for example oblivion has more if this type comment than air or nemesis, and if Th13teen had a page on this site i fear that it'd be much worse than xxxxxx in america is better, it'd be more like $^£% ($£)&% (%£)&("% CRAP !!!,

Not really a foot to stand on there, and i guess i may have been over reacting a little, but still feels great to have a good old rant.
 

gavin

Moderator
Staff member
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While I kind of appreciate your enthusiasm, I'm going to have to pick up on the fanboyish bull **** as well. Sorry!

No one knew if Nemesis was going to shear from its tracks on the first run arround, or that oblivion wasn't going to fall of the top dangerously or stall at the bottom of the tunnel, or that airs cars would make it all the way arround a track without dissintergrating. People had a good idea, but no one knew for sure.

Yeah, people actually had a VERY good idea that none of those things were going to happen, otherwise they would never have been built.

it annoys me to a point when people say that Tatsu is better than air because air doesn't do any loops

Well, Tatsu is better than Air. That's not to say that Air is bad (I actually really like it, more so than most on CF it seems), but Tatsu is better. That's fine; it really is, and there's no need to feel annoyed by that.

Your Nemesis argument is basically null and void because A. as has been pointed out, it wasn't the first of its kind and B. it still gets rated really, really highly by most people. If it was down near the bottom of most people's "lists" then you'd have a point; but it generally isn't, so you don't.

Oblivion, for me, is amazing. On riding, Griffon was great, but in hindsight it doesn't match up to Oblivion. I honestly prefer G5 to Griffon, which doesn't have Oblivion's tunnel or theming, which says a lot for the "simplicity" of Oblivion's design.

Furthemore in a few years time when americans have designed and built a coaser that features a 50ft freefall drop section instead of a 10ft drop section we will all be turning arround and saying Th13teen is/was sh*t.

Ok, so I'm repeating what other people have said: Th13teen actually is pretty s**t. Yeah, another park may well build a coaster of the same type, and it may well feature a bigger drop. However, the issue with Th13teen isn't really the drop anyway; it's the rest of the layout. Another park could make a coaster with exactly the same drop, but a better layout, and they'd have a better coaster.

Like I said before, I appreciate the enthusiam you're showing for the "world firsts" that Alton have installed, but I don't see the need to be so defensive about them. The protototype designs have been improved upon; it's as simple as that.

If anything you could argue that Alton were far too concerned with grabbing the "world's first" title than they were with using the idea to its full potential; they did the bare minimum they could with the coaster type they were offered.
 

spicy

Giga Poster
I don't really see the point that you are trying to make?

To be totally honest you sound like an AT fanboy trying to defend their coasters because someones wrote a comment on CF or YouTube etc..

Don't get me wrong, I love Alton. But it's only natural that people are going to compare coasters of the same type. For example Tatsu most probably is better than Air, just because Air was the prototype and came first, doesn't mean you can't compare the two and have an opinion on what is the better coaster.

I also happen to think Oblivion is better than Sheikra, not because it's a prototype, I just happen to think it's a better coaster. But it's ALL down to opinion and no ones opinion is ever fact and you can't try to change peoples opinions because it's their own view.
 

michaellll

Mega Poster
Most of the people on youtube commenting are trolls or they haven't been to enough parks.

I don't think their opinions matter a considerable amount.
 

Tomatron

Giga Poster
I also can't see what the big point is.

I'm not gonna repeat everything that's already been said, but Alton Towers has a history of marketing rides with a gimmick centrepiece for all they are worth, and for the mostpart doing a good job of it.

It's not always a surefire hit for success. Thirteen is gash, not because it's a bad ride (the coaster itself is fairly good), but the promotion and marketing of the ride was way off the mark.
 

Brookes

Giga Poster
My point to this rant, is that why do we constantly go arround comparing bigger, better, faster, more technologically advanced coasters to worlds first gambles, it annoys me to a point when people say that Tatsu is better than air because air doesn't do any loops, (of a kind), and the same with Oblivion and Sheikra, or Nemesis and Montu or Alpengiest.

I will always take these things of majestic beauty and fear for what they are, i cannot compare Nemesis to Deuling Dragons, Montu or Alpengeist; neither can i compare Air to Tatsu or Manta, Oblivion to Sheikra, or even Th13teen to any other ride, as they are all individual beasts each of an individual nature and theme, and thats what does it for me....

I am probably as much as an Alton fanboy as you are, but when better and bigger versions of the same ride types are released, they will naturally instantly be compared to those that they succeeded.

For me, Tatsu is better than Air, but not because "Air doesn't do any loops". I prefer the overall ride experience of Tatsu and at the end of the day that's what it comes down to. You say you can't compare Nemesis to DD, yet I would take Nemesis any day. Though I prefer Montu to Nemesis. It's all personal opinion and you've got to expect rides of the same type to be compared to each other, whether they are prototypes or not.
 

OfficialAltonTowers

Roller Poster
Great points everyone, I did come off a lot fanboy-ish, nice discussion and arguments,

However my arument may have been mainly alton, but it goes for all prototypes.

My basic point was that Air when it was one of a kind Was the best, everyone loved it for what it was, then when bigger things came along (tatau, manta) people stopped caring about Air, and went on to say Air is crap compared to xxxxxx. Which for me stands as an invalid point as you all thought air was great two secconds ago etc.

I also appreciate the fact that people will always compare rides to each other, unkowingly i even do it a lot of the time, and i agree with the point that if Alton waited a few years untill the tech was proven they may have bigger and better versions of the rides they have, and still attract huge crowds. But my argument stems from the fact that if Alton hadnt had Air, Oblivion, or Th13teen, you may not have theese big newer rides in the good old US and Greater Europe. So there wouldnt be a comparrison, because somone had to do it first, this is what annoys me.

Again i think that i have proven that i dont realy have a point, kind of a counter contradiction to myself, but it was well worth seeing all of your veiws, and i have enjoyed reading your comments. :--D
 

gavin

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Social Media Team
^But...

The first Superman flyer opened in the US a really, really short time after Air. It was being designed/built at the same time. If it had come along much later, then fair enough, but the fact is that it was likely being designed alongside Air.
 

Markeyed

Roller Poster
But in airs' case, could it be recognised that it wasn't as intense due to the hight restictions etc? compared to tatsu it isn't tall or fast...

sorry about the noob statement.. haha
 

spicy

Giga Poster
I've never ridden Superman but I have heard a lot of people say that they prefer Air over Superman.

I'm also fairly sure if JW really wanted Air to be intense it could have been, but it wasn't designed to be intense JW has said it's a coaster that was designed to be gentle and deliver the flying experience, which I think he achieved with Air.
 

gavin

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Social Media Team
^That's sort of what I was getting at.

Superman wasn't a "development" on the prototype, Air. They were designed and built at the same time, but with different ride experiences in mind. Air might have been in development for longer, but it clearly wasn't a "test run" of the coaster type since the first Superman flyer got built at the same time.

Air does exactly what it was designed to do, but people who are looking for an intense ride will always compare it unfavourably with the other flyers.
 
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