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The Israel/Palestine issue.

Youngster Joey

Strata Poster
Mod Edit:
I've split this topic from the political discussion as it's become a complete subject on its own and is an interesting discussion point.

Here are the relevant points leading to this discussion, quoted from the other topic:


Youngster Joey said:
They're all **** but I tend to vote liberal as generally it's more jewish friendly

tomahawKSU said:
Joey, that is something always has caused me to scratch my head, why do jewish people tend to vote democrat? I know Obama has yet to say once publicly that he supports Israel since he was elected. Hillary has been over there (as it is her job as Secretary of State) but typically you hear a president, regardless of who it is, support Israel.

Youngster Joey said:
He's publicly said he supports Israel. It's more the "War on Christmas" and the God has told me I will save this country Bull ****. It's a clear non-separation of church and state and it just bothers me. I understand you believe in your religion but I don't want it shoved down my throat even more. Christmas music has been on the radio for the last 3 weeks...

Joey said:
Re: supporting Israel, whilst I know nothing about political stuff, aren't most sane people in moral favour of Palestine? Isn't Israel being a massive dick...?

^How is Israel defending itself being a massive dick?
 

gavin

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Re: Personal Political Positions

^ I don't think Joey was referencing the latest bit of trouble, but more the whole Israel/Palestine situation.

So yeah, in that respect he's got a very valid point.
 

Smithy

Strata Poster
Re: Personal Political Positions

Youngster Joey said:
^How is Israel defending itself being a massive dick?

If a ten year old girl starts poking me in the chest for ten minutes and then I stomped on her face, broke her toes with a hammer and then burnt her eyebrows off, could I class that as defending myself?

Both sides are at fault, both sides are 'massive dicks'.
 

SaiyanHajime

Strata Poster
Re: Personal Political Positions

In my defence, wasn't aware there was a "latest bit of trouble". What's happened?
 

Smithy

Strata Poster
Re: Personal Political Positions

Israel got tired of missiles being fired randomly from Gaza so bombed the **** out of targets that were of 'military interest', including killing one of the head honchos.
 

tomahawk

Strata Poster
Re: Personal Political Positions

Basically the same thing that has been going on since the country was created. Israel was targeting Hamas officials in missile strikes, Palestine got pissed off, started firing them into Tel Aviv, **** kept going, then they called a cease fire.

I think that sums it up pretty well.

Sadly, most issues in the Middle East root from redrawing of lines following the Cold War. As my former History of Islam teacher claimed (apparently he is pretty well respected in cultural Islam studies) that when they made the Stan countries, they ignored the borders of tribes, and split them up, causing all the fights and war to happen. Obviously there is more to it than that, but it's important because the same thing happened with Israel in a sense. Granted, Israel gets told what seems to be on a daily basis that someone wants to eliminate them, or something along those lines. So if I was Israel, I would be a dick too.
 

Youngster Joey

Strata Poster
Re: Personal Political Positions

^Actually they shot a few missiles Jerusalem's way too. If it's so holy to you why the **** are you shooting missiles at it...
 

SaiyanHajime

Strata Poster
Re: Personal Political Positions

My understanding is that, originally, Arabs were pushed out... And then the Israelis built a wall around them and cut off their supplies of water and electricity and then treated them like ****. The Palestinians got pissed off and fought back, and ever since it's muddied the water further as each side defends themselves. Well, there wouldn't be sides if the Jews had just shared? Or is it not that simple?

And, the world sides with Israel? Why? Some political ****?

If it's so holy to you why the are you shooting missiles at it...
If it's holy why don't the Jews peacefully let the Arabs use it too. Oh, because religion isn't about that is it. It's about bloodshed and being a massive dick.
 

furie

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Re: Personal Political Positions

It's massively complex Joey.

The Palestinians were originally part of the Ottoman empire and lots of sub divisions of tribes, races and particular forms of religion.

During the late 19th century, a couple of sects of Jews looked at regaining the Jewish homeland (or what they perceive to be the Jewish homeland) as given to them by God (can't remember the exact book in the old testament).

They started by buying out land in the Jordan area from Palestinians/Ottomans/whoever they were. Then they took unclaimed or disputed territories and moved in. It was a kind of "aggressive, but pretty legally sound" take over to start of with. Then the locals realised that their lands were being taken, or lands now owned by the Jews crossed their land, or split their territories or whatever. Then, as always, somebody got into a fight over an ass and people got killed, homes burned and you end up with a century and half of hatred.

It didn't help that the Palestinians weren't united and were still fighting amongst themselves for land and power too. All the time, the Jews continued to by and take land and increase their foothold.

During the first world war, the Ottoman Empire sided with Germany and when they lost, the Empire was dissolved and the whole thing went to hell in a hand basket. The Jews were allowed more freedom to buy and take land from the evil people on the other side of the conflict (helped by the British who took control of Palestine). Of course, this then caused more friction, more grief and everybody being nasty to everyone else. After the second world war, Israel was declared an official "State" and given most of the lands in Palestine, with just a few areas left to the control of the Palestinians (are they actually a country of their own now?).

There then followed years of warring with Egypt (aided by, you guessed it, the British) and the Palestinians. Attacks, counter attacks, assassinations, murders, suicide bombers, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Essentially, Israel is a Jewish governed State that allows Palestinians to live in, but only in their own manner. As far as the Jewish (and by inference, Christians) are concerned, that land is is theirs as it was given to them by God and the Arabs, Muslims and Christians have no rights to live there, except under the laws of the Jewish leaders. This has led to mistreatment of Palestinians, people pushed from their homes (after all, if the Jewish own the land as decreed by God, why should they suffer an Arab on it?) and a shrinking of the lands the Palestinians can occupy.

The entire thing is just a complete mess, but while the Jewish are aggressors, the world in it's religious enlightenment believes that the Bible is more important than actual land rights or anything. The Palestinians obviously cocked up by joining the wrong side in WWI and it cost them badly as it left them under the rule of Jewish sympathetic British rule. As an officially "established" state, Israel is afforded the same kind of respect by the UN as any other country and that includes their choice to defend their borders.

So no matter what the history or reasons are, they are still classed as being "the right side". Politics sucks.
 

Pokemaniac

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Re: Personal Political Positions

furie said:
(are they actually a country of their own now?).

Not as of today, but (literally) maybe tomorrow. Palestine will apply for UN observatory membership tomorrow. Israel and the US protest, but pretty much the entire rest of the world is expected to vote for Palestinian membership.

This would theoretically raise them to the same level as Vatican City. Not that much, in other words. Still, it could be the first step on the way to sovereignity.
 

Youngster Joey

Strata Poster
Re: Personal Political Positions

^^Also not entirely true. For instance The Israelis are treating all the wounded no matter who.

Also Israel gave up the gaza strip as it was supposed to bring peace and all it's done is made it easier to rocket Israel.

Though one thing is for sure. It is extremely complicated and it will remain a conflict through all of our lifetimes.
 

furie

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Re: Personal Political Positions

Youngster Joey said:
^^Also not entirely true. For instance The Israelis are treating all the wounded no matter who.

I never said otherwise?

Youngster Joey said:
Also Israel gave up the gaza strip as it was supposed to bring peace and all it's done is made it easier to rocket Israel.

Erm.... Yeeeeeesssss... That strip of land they took by force of arms? Nice of them to give it back ;)

To be fair, the war started due to the fact that the land was being used to help launch attacks against Israel and the Arabs wanted a fight about something and the entire Israel issue was the perfect excuse.

It still comes down to the problem that Israel was created on the land of others and they feel resentful about being kicked off their home of thousands of years. Israel don't help by fighting back instead of trying to work out any peaceful approach. That though is down to two real issues with the Israelis:

- Due to thousands of years of persecution, they want a land to call home and to never allow the horrors that have beset them happen again. They WILL fight as a first course of action now rather than laying down again*.

- Religious belief. Quite simply, the majority of Israelis just believe that they are the chosen of God and that the land is theirs by the decree of God. There is no power in this world who can argue with that. So they have the absolute right to those lands and will fight to take it, and to protect it - they're are righteous!

Also worth mentioning again though, for the most part, the Israelis are legally in the right too - though sometimes through violence and the spoils of war.

Youngster Joey said:
Though one thing is for sure. It is extremely complicated and it will remain a conflict through all of our lifetimes.

I quite agree. It's one of those horrid positions where there is so much bad blood and anger that it can never be truly rectified. The differences are irrevocable. It will end when Israel is purely Jewish and the borders are solidified and the Palestinians settle (or emigrate) and are left alone to forget it all. That's just not going to happen.


*To be fair, this is also a very American attitude and was the British attitude in the early 80's which caused the Falkland's War - the "we will not back down when our borders are threatened" thing. It's just that there are very few peoples quite so close to neighbours who are enemies :)
 

SaiyanHajime

Strata Poster
Re: Personal Political Positions

Thanks Phil.

I guess to me, in my ignorance, it just looks as though people in the west side with Israel over Palestine because of nothing more than Muslim prejudice and fear of accusations of antisemitism? Instead of objectively asking who's being the bigger twat.

My opinion based on what Phil has said is still that Israel needs to grow up and learn to share, because there is no other option, is there?

Also, Joey... What's not entirely true about Phil's post? Sounds like you're just determined to add details in favour of Israel. I should **** hope human beings have the decency to help other human's in need. Basic moral sense, no?

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furie

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Re: Personal Political Positions

Kind of Joey, but they don't need to share because they did legally obtain a lot of land prior to WWI, were awarded land due to the Ottoman loyalties being with Germany and then were given the rest after WWII (apart from the bits they took by force, though they may have given them back later ;) ).

So why share land that is yours - even if it's only through political machinations and some ancient fairy tale - when you don't have to? They kind of have a point.

And as always, there are multiple sides to every story and you never hear the whole truth. The truth you do hear is really dependent on the source and none of it can ever really be trusted.

It's all just a bunch of violent idiots continuing to be violent idiots. Bang their bloody heads together and move on ;)
 

Youngster Joey

Strata Poster
Re: Personal Political Positions

Probably because im pro Israel. Most jews are...

Its ridiculous. Its all religious issues. Yea the result of ww1 didn't help but it all goes back to religion

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SaiyanHajime

Strata Poster
Re: Personal Political Positions

I have an issue with "most Jews are" comment. Why? What connection, unless religious, do you have with Israel? Nothing. This blood crap, these distinctions made between groups of people, is exactly the sort of crap that spurs racial hatred. And if it IS a religious belief that the Jews are Gods chosen people, then... Well that's a whole different issue.

Do you agree and defend everything America does? You're far more connected on a meaningful level to America than Israel, or any Jew outside the USA not in your family.

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Youngster Joey

Strata Poster
Re: Personal Political Positions

^You answered your own question.

IT'S RELIGIOUS BASED. It's all about how you were brought up. The jews have been the bottom of the chain for thousands of years now they are defending themselves. Are they totally in the right in Israel? Of course not. I personally believe thought that the state should exist and others won't rest until it is destroyed.

Honestly I feel like we've hijacked this thread and taken it the wrong way. This is my last post on the matter.
 

Ian

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Tbh, I tune out when I hear the words "Israel" and "Palestine". I have absolutely zero interest in this. It seems like they're constantly at war with one another so wouldn't it be better to let them bomb the **** out of each other until the "problems" are eradicated.
 
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