Stagnant UK Coaster Situation

[SaiyanHajime]

Explaining why the UK's number of coasters compared to elsewhere is not the massive over saturation it seems is complex... But basically, cultures differ.

When I'm in Virginia, visiting a park like Six Flags Great Adventure is comparable to visiting Alton Towers from where I live in the UK, in south London. The difference in distance is vast and it takes longer to get to Six Flags, but culturally.... It's not a huge deal. Kyle drove to Orlando from his - 13 hours - in one go with only toilet breaks. But the 4 hour mission to Alton from mine? That's ...That's too far.

And get this - the population of London alone is comparable to the entire state of Virginia. Virginia has two major theme parks, with more coasters between them than the parks serving Londoners. And more importantly, they're open 5 hours longer in Virginia too.

So, its not as simple as it seems. We have a very quickly developing industry in the grand scheme of things, but like much of our infrastructure, its underdeveloped for the population that make use of it.

 

[jackdude101]

My absolute fav is when new guys come along and talk to us like we don't know anything about the theme park industry haha!

Hey jackdude, great contribution to the topic, might want to think about toning down the condescending tone though, especially when what you're posting isn't 100% accurate.


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I wasn't aware that my tone was condescending. What I'm saying is accurate. Nothing can ruin your day at a theme park more than rain can. The UK gets a lot of rain, so there you have it. That's the real reason why no big chains besides Merlin, which is based in the UK, want to build there. They think the inclement weather makes investing in a UK project too big of a risk. It's also why there are no big-name theme parks in the US/Canadian Pacific Northwest, where there is also a lot of rain.

 

[elephant58]

No it isn't. Where's your proof? I'm pretty sure that the main reason independent parks in the UK aren't investing is because Merlin have a huge monopoly - which is why many of their efforts are considered lazy and commercialised, because they don't need to work stupidly hard to impress. They have lots of money and almost complete control of the market, hence why they build whatever they want and no one else will beat them.

 

[Ben]

Huh?

Despite its reputation, the North East of America gets a lot more rain than us (like, just look it up). Our parks can also operate longer seasons than they can in that part of America - ie, the part which is pretty much the best "area" for coasters in the World.

That's really not the reason there's no big chains who want to build here, but OK. I wouldn't break it down to something as simple as "IT RAINS".

 

[jackdude101]

No it isn't. Where's your proof? I'm pretty sure that the main reason independent parks in the UK aren't investing is because Merlin have a huge monopoly - which is why many of their efforts are considered lazy and commercialised, because they don't need to work stupidly hard to impress. They have lots of money and almost complete control of the market, hence why they build whatever they want and no one else will beat them.

I'm not talking about the independent parks; I'm talking about why no other big chains that presently don't have a presence in the UK want to build there. Yeah, Merlin has deep pockets. The only way you are going to break such a monopoly is to bring in another big name to fight them at their level. Parques Reunidos, Six Flags, Cedar Fair, etc. Any of those guys could give Merlin a run for their money. The trick is to convince them that making a UK expansion would be a good idea.

 

[JoshC.]

My absolute fav is when new guys come along and talk to us like we don't know anything about the theme park industry haha!

Hey jackdude, great contribution to the topic, might want to think about toning down the condescending tone though, especially when what you're posting isn't 100% accurate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I wasn't aware that my tone was condescending. What I'm saying is accurate. Nothing can ruin your day at a theme park more than rain can. The UK gets a lot of rain, so there you have it. That's the real reason why no big chains besides Merlin, which is based in the UK, want to build there. They think the inclement weather makes investing in a UK project too big of a risk. It's also why there are no big-name theme parks in the US/Canadian Pacific Northwest, where there is also a lot of rain.

Maybe I'm just too much a Brit in saying this, but I can honestly say I've had some brilliant days out at UK parks in the rain. I know some parks close down their major rides when there's rain and such, but it's not like that in the UK. So as long as you just suck it up and deal with it, rain won't ruin your day at all.

Also interesting that you say no big chains want to build parks in the UK when Paramount are currently in the planning stages of possibly building one (even if I don't think it'll happen)...

 

[jackdude101]

My absolute fav is when new guys come along and talk to us like we don't know anything about the theme park industry haha!

Hey jackdude, great contribution to the topic, might want to think about toning down the condescending tone though, especially when what you're posting isn't 100% accurate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I wasn't aware that my tone was condescending. What I'm saying is accurate. Nothing can ruin your day at a theme park more than rain can. The UK gets a lot of rain, so there you have it. That's the real reason why no big chains besides Merlin, which is based in the UK, want to build there. They think the inclement weather makes investing in a UK project too big of a risk. It's also why there are no big-name theme parks in the US/Canadian Pacific Northwest, where there is also a lot of rain.

Maybe I'm just too much a Brit in saying this, but I can honestly say I've had some brilliant days out at UK parks in the rain. I know some parks close down their major rides when there's rain and such, but it's not like that in the UK. So as long as you just suck it up and deal with it, rain won't ruin your day at all.

Also interesting that you say no big chains want to build parks in the UK when Paramount are currently in the planning stages of possibly building one (even if I don't think it'll happen)...

In any US park if there is a single drop of rain, all the major outdoor rides shut down completely. If you live in a climate with tons of thunderstorms in Summer like here in Central Florida, they'll routinely shut down everything even before the rain starts falling (it's actually only the "Sunshine State" October-May). I suppose if you have always lived in a rainy climate you get used to it and might not see what the big deal is about a little rain, but for anyone else it can be absolute misery.

 

[Ben]

You literally live in a climate that gets more rain than us!

You seem to have this image that Britain is just, rain. All the time. And it's just, not.

If anything, our rain is less extreme than America's so we'd be MORE likely to have parks if that was the deciding factor.

 

[elephant58]

No it isn't. Where's your proof? I'm pretty sure that the main reason independent parks in the UK aren't investing is because Merlin have a huge monopoly - which is why many of their efforts are considered lazy and commercialised, because they don't need to work stupidly hard to impress. They have lots of money and almost complete control of the market, hence why they build whatever they want and no one else will beat them.

I'm not talking about the independent parks; I'm talking about why no other big chains that presently don't have a presence in the UK want to build there. Yeah, Merlin has deep pockets. The only way you are going to break such a monopoly is to bring in another big name to fight them at their level. Parques Reunidos, Six Flags, Cedar Fair, etc. Any of those guys could give Merlin a run for their money. The trick is to convince them that making a UK expansion would be a good idea.

Paramount? And it's unlikely that it will actually happen, because of the UK's strict planning laws. There have been numerous plans for parks here, but none of them ever get built. Ok, Paramount is the first big chain other than Merlin to make plans, but they are still a big chain none the less.

 

[nadroJ]

In any US park if there is a single drop of rain, all the major outdoor rides shut down completely. If you live in a climate with tons of thunderstorms in Summer like here in Central Florida, they'll routinely shut down everything even before the rain starts falling (it's actually only the "Sunshine State" October-May). I suppose if you have always lived in a rainy climate you get used to it and might not see what the big deal is about a little rain, but for anyone else it can be absolute misery.

Again with the condescending tone. WE KNOW. We have been to parks outside of the UK before you know, in fact, some of us have even been to parks outside of Florida, even as far as Asia *shock horror*. I don't know why you feel the need to explain everything to us like we haven't a clue what we're talking about. Also, massive generalisation that for anyone else it can be misery, you simply can't make such a sweeping statement, it's ridiculous.

And yeah, you're just wrong. Rain is not the issue. Utterly ridiculous that you would even think this is the case. If that were the issue we wouldn't even have a theme park industry in the first place. Let alone places like Japan and the North East of America.

Planning permission is a major player here. It is EXTREMELY difficult to get planning permission for new rides in already existing attractions due to the close proximity of local communities, let alone entirely new ones. Basically it's too much of a ballache with not enough certainty for return on investment.

 

[GuyWithAStick]

Rainy England is no more than a stereotype. In fact, it doesn't rain that much in London and South England. It rains more in the North West in Scotland and Ireland.

 

[jackdude101]

In any US park if there is a single drop of rain, all the major outdoor rides shut down completely. If you live in a climate with tons of thunderstorms in Summer like here in Central Florida, they'll routinely shut down everything even before the rain starts falling (it's actually only the "Sunshine State" October-May). I suppose if you have always lived in a rainy climate you get used to it and might not see what the big deal is about a little rain, but for anyone else it can be absolute misery.

Again with the condescending tone. WE KNOW. We have been to parks outside of the UK before you know, in fact, some of us have even been to parks outside of Florida, even as far as Asia *shock horror*. I don't know why you feel the need to explain everything to us like we haven't a clue what we're talking about. Also, massive generalisation that for anyone else it can be misery, you simply can't make such a sweeping statement, it's ridiculous.

And yeah, you're just wrong. Rain is not the issue. Utterly ridiculous that you would even think this is the case. If that were the issue we wouldn't even have a theme park industry in the first place. Let alone places like Japan and the North East of America.

Planning permission is a major player here. It is EXTREMELY difficult to get planning permission for new rides in already existing attractions due to the close proximity of local communities, let alone entirely new ones. Basically it's too much of a ballache with not enough certainty for return on investment.

You: "A foreigner is talking about the goings-on in my country?! DAMN HIM TO HELL! *HISSSSSSSSS* Um, I mean I must inform him of his error immediately."

People are allowed to have opinions and perspectives about other places, even if they have only briefly visited them or never been there at all. Being bent-out-of-shape over these things doesn't automatically make you right.

 

[nadroJ]

I wouldn't mind if you'd done your research but literally the place you live gets more rain than we do. Like seriously, just a quick Google will tell you that much? And it's not a case of I've been to more places therefore I'm smarter or even someone who has never been here talking about it, it's when what they're saying is total **** and they're trying to pass it off as fact because 'please respect my opinion.' You can't demand respect, you earn it, by posting informed and researched responses as opposed to assumptions based off of a preconception you have of somewhere.

 

[mouse]

It's not just the rain that has caused the UK's stagnant coaster situation, it's also that the British park developers keep stopping for tea breaks all the time so no work gets done.

Also scones are a very unreliable building material for roller coasters, hence why the UK lacks any ambitious new rides.

 

[SilverArrow]

Basically land is super expensive.

Also Disney chose Paris over London partly, iirc due to Paris having a much more centralised position in europe-i.e. not on an island.

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[Ben]

Yeah, the idea Paris was easier to get to.

They missed the fact London is the most visited city in the World (well, was at the time I think it's been overtaken now) and that everyone pretty much universally agrees it wouldn't have been such a **** show if it was here xD

 

[Pokemaniac]

That rain parameter might have some merit, though. What stops park-going from being fun isn't the amount of rain in mm/year, but rather the number overcast/grey days per year (or per season, if you like). I mean, a place like Florida still has a reputation of being sunny despite huge rain volumes, because rain falls in short, intense bursts. Up here in northern Europe, we can have days of continuous rain bringing way less water than a single Floridan shower. I'd rather go to a park when the weather is forecast to be sunny for most of the day with a one-hour shower of 25 mm, than a gray, rainy day with a continuous drizzle totalling 15 mm. I can stand having to find shelter for the duration of a shower, but I'm not sure if I would bother with the trip if I had to wear my raincoat all the time.

Not saying rain is the biggest factor, but I can see it having some influence.

 

[sparky2u]

I just think UK parks are scared at building a GG or GCI "woodie" which is a shame as they are missing out so much. Most of the parks could afford a wooden coaster since they are cheaper than steel.

It's trying to change the park owners view of them which is difficult unless they ride "Troy" at Toverland or "Joris en de Draak" which then should convince them wooden coasters are just as good as steel.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

The rain is a factor, but not in the same way.

What I've observed from when I spend time in America, around Americans, visiting parks with Americans... Is that unless the weather is IDEAL, people don't go to parks.

And when I say ideal... I mean not raining, not too hot, just right.

In the south especially, people just do not visit parks on hot days. I went to Carowinds on a Friday in the summer when it was about 35c and there was no one there. Absolutely dead. Walk on Fury dead. Because 35c is DISGUSTING. If that had been Alton Towers, it would have been absolutely rammed.

As a general cultural rule, Americans are less tolerant of anything bar perfection than Brits. This goes for customer service, the weather, product quality. In the UK we have a complainy that'll do attitude to everything. But American's take stuff back if it's not perfect. They won't tolerate slow restaurant service. And they just generally speak up when stuff isn't right.

You go to an American park on a hot day and they are DEAD, especially south. Florida doesn't apply to this rule, why? Because people aren't local, they've booked a holiday and they've got to stick to it AND a lot of visitors are foreign.

Hot day in the UK? Parks are packed. Absolutely. Packed. Rainy day? Eh, you can expect lesser crowds. Visitor numbers do plummet if there have been extended periods of rainy weather. But Jordan's right in terms of most US states having more rainfall than the UK. We're definitely less put off in the UK by it though. But that's a cultural attitude. However, we do also have a cultural obsession with the heat - this idea that it's so infrequently nice weather here is embedded into our own culture, and so when the sun comes out we "make the most of it". Reality is, hot day at a theme park is the WORST possible conditions to be at one.

So whilst weather matters... Not in the sense that theme parks are not an appealing product or business proposition. The issue is Merlin, the issue is that the "major" non Merlin parks are just... not even major. Even one of Merlin's parks, Chessington, I wouldn't call "major". The UK theme park industry is literally just Thorpe, Alton and Legoland. That's it. Blackpool cannot be taken seriously as a contender because they never build anything new and do not have country-wide appeal (anymore, there was a time when holidaying up there was a thing, not really now.)

It's very hard to get your head around just how many people are in the UK...

So let's take California as an example.

Land space:
California - 423,970 km2
UK - 243,820 km²

Population:
California - 39,144,818
UK - 63,181,775

We're like half the size, with near twice the population.

Just... Just think about that.

 

[CoasterCrazy]

Yeah, I think you hit the nail right on the head there Joey. Let's take my own county, Cambridgeshire, which is great in every way, apart from the fact it has no permanent coasters. The best we get is a rather **** Go-gator for a week each year, which I haven't even bothered with.

Weather wise, it's one of the best places for a theme park, with East Anglia receiving much less rain than other parts of Britain and s fair bit of sun too, but population density is a real issue - and growth rates have no chance of slowing down any time soon. Cambridge is all green and pleasant, but it's literally all buildings, roads, fields and maybe a little tiny bit of protected woodland which isn't big enough to support a proper ecosystem anyway. Basically, there's barely any space for very large developments like theme parks. Because of the population density and rapid growth, we have some quite sensible planning laws. SFMM is right in the middle of the desert, where very few people moan about its development.
We don't have the space - and we certainly don't have roads with high enough capacities either.
The US is a young, massive country compared to ours.

The solution to our lack of space is to not build theme parks. The solution to no theme parks is just to go elsewhere on cheap holidays, and when you return enlightened, very little we have to offer really appeals anymore to be honest. When you've seen theme parks done properly in the US and you come back to our smaller, overcrowded, overpriced parks with few rides of international significance, it just doesn't feel the same.

I'm not saying it's all Merlin's fault, but when you think back to 1994, when we had competition, more space and international tourism was more expensive we had the world's best invert, the world's tallest coaster and one of the best stand up coasters all open in the same year. Since 2006 we've had The Swarm and since the Smiler did more to hurt the industry than help it, that's practically it.

Thorpe and Alton are solid parks - but they're really limited for space and I'm not too sure either of them are really heading in the right direction to be honest. They need to be owned by different companies to make them tick now.

I think there is space in the market for a large, American style Park in the UK...but where the hell do you put it?