SeaWorld to end Orca breeding programme

[mouse]

Sorry back again, enjoying the debate .

Tilikum, and all the whales and other animals get a choice to participate in training sessions and do not get fold deprived if they choose not to participate. A hungry animal is more likely to be aggressive-you want to promote calm, positive behaviour.

Tilikum has been responsible for the brutal deaths of three people. There have also been numerous attacks on humans, as well as injuries resulting in conflicts between captive killer whales (here are some details of attacks). Personally I wouldn’t exactly call that calm or positive behaviour. The whales clearly have aggressive tendencies which makes me question Sea World’s training practices. (BTW I thought positive reinforcement meant to reward animals with food when they are good, and withhold food if they’re not?)

Humans evolved to not eat grains, but guess what we do? Eat a lot of grains. The food industry even claims they're healthy for us!

If ancestral humans were forcibly taken from their natural habitat and made to eat grains then I’m sure it would be a different story. You just can’t compare the lifestyle choices of humans to the forced lifestyle of captive killer whales.

Animals, given the choice, would rather not exercise unnecessarily. Exercise is costly in the wild, something they MUST do to find food.

I know that in many Zoos food is hidden in enclosures or served in a certain way to mimic natural feeding patterns and provide the animals with the stimulation they need, therefore keeping them healthy. Killer whales need the mental and physical stimulation that comes with hunting, it’s an instinct they have evolved to survive in the wild. To suddenly deprive them of that stimulation causes distress – they don’t understand the concept of a ‘choice’ as to how they get their food.

No, we cant tell how well any animal copes with... Well anything, but that works both ways. To say the orca must be miserable because they aren't living as they evolved to live is such a gross misunderstanding of nature.

To say the orca can immediately adapt to cope and thrive in an unnatural environment seems like more of a gross misunderstanding of nature. We can tell how most animals cope with things, scientific research in animal psychology and behaviour has advanced since the dark ages. We know that animals do not cope well in unnatural or forced environments, hence the condemning of practices such as dancing bears or performing circus animals.

The SeaWorld whales in particular get the exact recommended amount of exercise, nutrition. Etc. Their health care is better than that of most people in America, let alone the world.

Sadly I doubt the whales are thinking “I know we’re stuck in a confined, inadequate environment, but at least we get great healthcare.” Saying that, there are still numerous common health problems concerning captive orcas such as dorsal fin collapse, pneumonia and cataracts (some info here).

Frankly, and this is just me so please don't take this personally, there's something gross about worrying over the care for a few orcas at SeaWorld, whilst people are dying because they can't get access to water or doctors.

Um… isn’t this debate about the morality of keeping killer whales in captivity? No one mentioned anything about it being more important than people dying for whatever reason. I could just as easily go into the Valravn topic and criticise people for worrying about its construction, as people are dying because they can’t get access to water or doctors.

 

[SilverArrow]

Sorry back again, enjoying the debate .

Tilikum, and all the whales and other animals get a choice to participate in training sessions and do not get fold deprived if they choose not to participate. A hungry animal is more likely to be aggressive-you want to promote calm, positive behaviour.

Tilikum has been responsible for the brutal deaths of three people. There have also been numerous attacks on humans, as well as injuries resulting in conflicts between captive killer whales (here are some details of attacks). Personally I wouldn’t exactly call that calm or positive behaviour. The whales clearly have aggressive tendencies which makes me question Sea World’s training practices. (BTW I thought positive reinforcement meant to reward animals with food when they are good, and withhold food if they’re not?)

Humans evolved to not eat grains, but guess what we do? Eat a lot of grains. The food industry even claims they're healthy for us!

If ancestral humans were forcibly taken from their natural habitat and made to eat grains then I’m sure it would be a different story. You just can’t compare the lifestyle choices of humans to the forced lifestyle of captive killer whales.

Animals, given the choice, would rather not exercise unnecessarily. Exercise is costly in the wild, something they MUST do to find food.

I know that in many Zoos food is hidden in enclosures or served in a certain way to mimic natural feeding patterns and provide the animals with the stimulation they need, therefore keeping them healthy. Killer whales need the mental and physical stimulation that comes with hunting, it’s an instinct they have evolved to survive in the wild. To suddenly deprive them of that stimulation causes distress – they don’t understand the concept of a ‘choice’ as to how they get their food.

No, we cant tell how well any animal copes with... Well anything, but that works both ways. To say the orca must be miserable because they aren't living as they evolved to live is such a gross misunderstanding of nature.

To say the orca can immediately adapt to cope and thrive in an unnatural environment seems like more of a gross misunderstanding of nature. We can tell how most animals cope with things, scientific research in animal psychology and behaviour has advanced since the dark ages. We know that animals do not cope well in unnatural or forced environments, hence the condemning of practices such as dancing bears or performing circus animals.

The SeaWorld whales in particular get the exact recommended amount of exercise, nutrition. Etc. Their health care is better than that of most people in America, let alone the world.

Sadly I doubt the whales are thinking “I know we’re stuck in a confined, inadequate environment, but at least we get great healthcare.” Saying that, there are still numerous common health problems concerning captive orcas such as dorsal fin collapse, pneumonia and cataracts (some info here).

Frankly, and this is just me so please don't take this personally, there's something gross about worrying over the care for a few orcas at SeaWorld, whilst people are dying because they can't get access to water or doctors.

Um… isn’t this debate about the morality of keeping killer whales in captivity? No one mentioned anything about it being more important than people dying for whatever reason. I could just as easily go into the Valravn topic and criticise people for worrying about its construction, as people are dying because they can’t get access to water or doctors.

No it doesn't. It means reward good behaviour (the reinforcement also doesn't have to be food it can be toys or a rub down etc) and ignore bad behaviour but it doesn't mean starve. That style of training is positive punishment. The idea is that the animals want to participate with you because trainers make it fun but a key factor of it is that it offers choice.

For the sake of a healthy discussion:

I wouldn't call the deaths brutal to be honest. Brutal is being ripped apart alive and half eaten or tonnes of broken bones.
First death- there is confusion over whether this was even Tilikum and not the other Orca in the tank.
Death two- Man jumps into pool at night, found dead but will very minimal wounds-just scrapes which could have come from play behaviour (and the man could have died from hypothermia/drowned by himself also I think) whales and Dolphins also 'rake' each other for a variety of reasons.
Third death- Trainer pulled into water by hair and pulled around tank for a while until she drowned. Again could have been play behaviour, nobody knows his incentive. I understand there was a change in the situation (like hair dangling in the water) that could have started him. I would hardly cause those brutal deaths. Big cats kill a lot of people per year yet this goes pretty much unreported.

I also wouldn't say that the species is aggressive in captivity. See above for more details but you wouldn't see them in shows (and previously working on the water with) trainers for decades at multiple facilities if they were an aggressive species unsuitable for training. You see lots of dog/parrot/sea lion shows around the world for a reason. They respond well to training and often enjoy human company. The temperament of individual animals is important on training. Some are suited to being display and educational animals (being in shows etc) and some aren't. Even if Tilikum was aggressive I wouldn't base my judgement on an keeping of a species on one individual's behaviour.

 

[Ian]

Sea world to end Orca breeding programme - Meh.

SeaWorld and the treatment of their whales is one of those things that we're all supposed to be interested in, but I'd wager the majority of people don't give a ****. They're just too scared to say it because it's morally the wrong thing to think. But yeah, I don't give a **** if they have a breeding programme or not.

 

[mouse]

I wouldn't call the deaths brutal to be honest. Brutal is being ripped apart alive and half eaten or tonnes of broken bones.

Ok, personally I would call it brutal. Trainers have been drowned, toyed with and had limbs ripped off (I believe Dawn Brancheau had an arm ripped off).

First death- there is confusion over whether this was even Tilikum and not the other Orca in the tank.

Eyewitness accounts claim it was Tilikum that is responsible for the death. There were two other orcas present and both were female, so Tilikum was easy to distinguish due to his collapsed dorsal fin. Even if it wasn’t Tilikum the fact that a captive whale killed and toyed with a trainer still reinforces the point that they have aggressive tendencies.

Death two- Man jumps into pool at night, found dead but will very minimal wounds-just scrapes which could have come from play behaviour (and the man could have died from hypothermia/drowned by himself also I think) whales and Dolphins also 'rake' each other for a variety of reasons.

The man was found dismembered and draped over Tilikum’s back. Tilikum may not have been directly responsible for his death but there is evidence to suggest aggressive behaviour. It may be Tilikum ‘playing’, but if this is a captive orca’s play behaviour should they really be allowed in captivity with such close contact to humans? I know that whales and dolphins do rake each other in the wild, however it is more common in captivity due to the increased conflict from lack of stimulation, and the cramped living conditions meaning they can’t escape if there is conflict.

Third death- Trainer pulled into water by hair and pulled around tank for a while until she drowned. Again could have been play behaviour, nobody knows his incentive. I understand there was a change in the situation (like hair dangling in the water) that could have started him. I would hardly cause those brutal deaths. Big cats kill a lot of people per year yet this goes pretty much unreported.

Its disputed whether she was pulled into the water by her hair, as some eyewitnesses claim she was pulled in by her arm. The autopsy report claims her arm was ripped from her body (which supports the latter), as well as broken bones, dislocations and blunt force injuries. I would certainly call that brutal. If it is play behaviour, it is aggressive play behaviour and suggests the captive orcas have aggressive tendencies. The aggressive behaviour is brought on by a lack of mental and physical stimulation, as I’ve said before. I’m sure big cats do kill a lot of people per year, but I think that is somewhat irrelevant and doesn’t link to captive orca aggression.

you wouldn't see them in shows (and previously working on the water with) trainers for decades at multiple facilities if they were an aggressive species unsuitable for training.

They make a ton of money for the parks that own them, and continue to. That’s why the practice has gone on for so long despite the many accidents that have occurred. Shamu is an international brand, Sea World has to maintain that brand’s reputation so will keep the shows and training going for as long as possible despite the aggression. I’ll LINK to the list of attacks again. You’ll probably mention that there have been more attacks involving big cats or whatever, but there are fewer killer whales in captivity than big cats, and they have been captive for a much smaller length of time.

Even if Tilikum was aggressive I wouldn't base my judgement on an keeping of a species on one individual's behaviour.

See the list of captive killer whale attacks I linked to. It is not just Tilikum who has shown aggressive tendencies, it is common throughout the practice of keeping killer whales captive.

 

[tomahawk]

Sea world to end Orca breeding programme - Meh.

SeaWorld and the treatment of their whales is one of those things that we're all supposed to be interested in, but I'd wager the majority of people don't give a ****. They're just too scared to say it because it's morally the wrong thing to think. But yeah, I don't give a **** if they have a breeding programme or not.

This.

All the SJW jumped on the bandwagon and shame anyone who disagrees. Let's ignore the effort the company put on education and studying these animals, because without Sea World, the understanding would be vastly different.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Why do people think it's weird that orcas have harmed humans in captivity?

Working with animals is dangerous.

It doesn't matter what animal it is - animals are unpredictable and dangerous. Humans will get injured working with them.

The number of orca related incidents is actually minute considering for a few decades now people have been IN THE WATER WITH THE LARGEST CAPTIVE SPECIES, WHOM HAPPENS TO ALSO BE ONE OF THE OCEANS APEX PREDATORS.

It's such a silly argument. And it always leads into "but they don't harm people in the wild!" YES BECAUSE HUMANS ARENT SWIMMING ABOUT AROUND WILD ORCAS.

All animals are dangerous. All.

Now if you're against animals in captivity full stop, fine. But you better be vegan, you better only purchase products with no animals in the supply chain (impossible), have no pets, never visit theme parks with zoos, never use medicine or visit a doctor of any kind and tonnes of other essential stuff, else you're a hypocrite, be against guide dogs and other service animals, etc. Just saying.

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[mouse]

The number of orca related incidents is actually minute considering for a few decades now people have been IN THE WATER WITH THE LARGEST CAPTIVE SPECIES, WHOM HAPPENS TO ALSO BE ONE OF THE OCEANS APEX PREDATORS.

There have been 4 deaths and multiple serious injuries since the 1960s, that’s still not acceptable yet the practice still goes on. Your bit in capitals explains exactly why they shouldn’t be in captivity.

It's such a silly argument. And it always leads into "but they don't harm people in the wild!" YES BECAUSE HUMANS ARENT SWIMMING ABOUT AROUND WILD ORCAS.

Killer whales have repeatedly shown to be aggressive, harmful and inappropriate for captive conditions. I agree that the comparison to attacks in the wild is irrelevant, but that doesn’t change the fact that the attacks in captivity are unacceptable.

All animals are dangerous. All.

You must understand that all animals are different. They have different needs, lifestyles and tendencies. Some animals are more dangerous to hold captive than others, one being orcas. And yet they’re still allowed in such close proximity to humans. They’re capable of much more damage than other animals, and therefore more dangerous than many other species.

Now if you're against animals in captivity full stop, fine. But you better be vegan, you better only purchase products with no animals in the supply chain (impossible), have no pets, never visit theme parks with zoos, never use medicine or visit a doctor of any kind and tonnes of other essential stuff, else you're a hypocrite, be against guide dogs and other service animals, etc. Just saying.

I’m not against all animals in captivity. I just happen to have an interest and know a fair bit about captive orcas due to a previous EPQ I did on the subject (EPQ is like a mini dissertation). It involved me having to search for hours on end for unbiased and scientific evidence on the practice of keeping them in captivity, and coming to my own conclusion based on the evidence. I admit, I don’t know much about animal rights in general, but it is definitely more complicated than shunning all animal based entertainment or products. I’m also not against Sea World’s conservation and rehabilitation work, or the fact that they have previously used the captive whales for research purposes. However I refuse to believe that that is still a valid reason for keeping them in captivity, we already have an advanced knowledge of the species and there is no need for them to stay in inadequate conditions for that purpose. I’ll say it again, if they were kept for conservation and research work they wouldn’t be performing in shows every day.

 

[SilverArrow]

I wouldn't call the deaths brutal to be honest. Brutal is being ripped apart alive and half eaten or tonnes of broken bones.

Ok, personally I would call it brutal. Trainers have been drowned, toyed with and had limbs ripped off (I believe Dawn Brancheau had an arm ripped off).

First death- there is confusion over whether this was even Tilikum and not the other Orca in the tank.

Eyewitness accounts claim it was Tilikum that is responsible for the death. There were two other orcas present and both were female, so Tilikum was easy to distinguish due to his collapsed dorsal fin. Even if it wasn’t Tilikum the fact that a captive whale killed and toyed with a trainer still reinforces the point that they have aggressive tendencies.

Death two- Man jumps into pool at night, found dead but will very minimal wounds-just scrapes which could have come from play behaviour (and the man could have died from hypothermia/drowned by himself also I think) whales and Dolphins also 'rake' each other for a variety of reasons.

The man was found dismembered and draped over Tilikum’s back. Tilikum may not have been directly responsible for his death but there is evidence to suggest aggressive behaviour. It may be Tilikum ‘playing’, but if this is a captive orca’s play behaviour should they really be allowed in captivity with such close contact to humans? I know that whales and dolphins do rake each other in the wild, however it is more common in captivity due to the increased conflict from lack of stimulation, and the cramped living conditions meaning they can’t escape if there is conflict.

Third death- Trainer pulled into water by hair and pulled around tank for a while until she drowned. Again could have been play behaviour, nobody knows his incentive. I understand there was a change in the situation (like hair dangling in the water) that could have started him. I would hardly cause those brutal deaths. Big cats kill a lot of people per year yet this goes pretty much unreported.

Its disputed whether she was pulled into the water by her hair, as some eyewitnesses claim she was pulled in by her arm. The autopsy report claims her arm was ripped from her body (which supports the latter), as well as broken bones, dislocations and blunt force injuries. I would certainly call that brutal. If it is play behaviour, it is aggressive play behaviour and suggests the captive orcas have aggressive tendencies. The aggressive behaviour is brought on by a lack of mental and physical stimulation, as I’ve said before. I’m sure big cats do kill a lot of people per year, but I think that is somewhat irrelevant and doesn’t link to captive orca aggression.

you wouldn't see them in shows (and previously working on the water with) trainers for decades at multiple facilities if they were an aggressive species unsuitable for training.

They make a ton of money for the parks that own them, and continue to. That’s why the practice has gone on for so long despite the many accidents that have occurred. Shamu is an international brand, Sea World has to maintain that brand’s reputation so will keep the shows and training going for as long as possible despite the aggression. I’ll LINK to the list of attacks again. You’ll probably mention that there have been more attacks involving big cats or whatever, but there are fewer killer whales in captivity than big cats, and they have been captive for a much smaller length of time.

Even if Tilikum was aggressive I wouldn't base my judgement on an keeping of a species on one individual's behaviour.

See the list of captive killer whale attacks I linked to. It is not just Tilikum who has shown aggressive tendencies, it is common throughout the practice of keeping killer whales captive.

The majority of the incidents are from a long time ago (60s/70s/80s) at substandard facilities. Training and animal care has come along a long way since then. Yes there are a number of incidents there but if trainers were getting into the water (multiple times with multiple people) with these animals for 3 shows a day plus other activities at every facility that has owned them over decades and decades I would say that that list isn't that bad. Consider also that animal activists have gone through with a fine toothed comb to pick out as many as possible. The wiki page appears to have an anti captivity in parts. Also, as I said above some individuals are better suited than others for training and water work. That is true of any animals. A lot of the incidents were of the same individuals repeatedly and lots of others do not feature at all despite having been in aquaria for decades and having done hours and hours of water work with a number of people. I just wouldn't brand the species as aggressive based on the evidence. Some individuals might be less patient than others but very few species are 'aggressive' as a whole.

Yes there are more big cats in zoos around the world but there are consistently around 4 deaths a year associated with them and usually a couple from elephants from keepers who have simply. one into contact with them without a barrier between them. As Joey says animals are dangerous and if you work with them you are at some degree of risk.

I've seen contradicting things about the arm ripping thing, like you said it is disputed.

You have said that they are aggressive because of lack of stimulation. How do you know that? That could have been lifted straight off of an animal rights webpage. Animal behaviour is complex and a number of factors come into play at any one time. I've known animals who get startled easily, get grumpy during breeding season, prefer specific people to others, don't like change none of them were inherently 'aggressive' as a species.

Also with the comparison to the wild....we're not going to know whether Bob went out in his boat and never returned because of an Orca attack or whether his boat capsized if he dies and doesn't come back. Tribes like the Inuits are hardly going to ring up PETA if someone has an incident with a whale. It's impossible to document.

They also do participate in research and conservation work with the Orcas. I would like to see them do more educational shows but regardless of whether there is a human standing with a microphone or not, the shows still have the same benefit to the animals (with believe it or not a majority of wild behaviours).


Joey said most of the other stuff I was going to say so I won't type it again.

I'm not even that gutted about this news to be honest. I think we can live without Orca in captivity perfectly fine I just hate when people spout stuff that is complete bullpoo or so subjective and circumstantial that it shouldn't be relied on as fact. SeaWorld have tried to spread some more truths but anything that comes from them in automatically branded as bias and wrong. Somehow people still read activist stuff like it's all true.

The same people who have made all these claims want zoos banned, everyone to be a vegetarian and not have pets so I am naturally sceptical of their agenda, having been involved with the zoo field and someone who likes to base their knowledge on fact.

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[lachlan]

Now if you're against animals in captivity full stop, fine. But you better be vegan, you better only purchase products with no animals in the supply chain (impossible), have no pets, never visit theme parks with zoos, never use medicine or visit a doctor of any kind and tonnes of other essential stuff, else you're a hypocrite, be against guide dogs and other service animals, etc. Just saying.

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You're ignoring the fact that animals are of different intelligence. Humans are the most intelligent, whales and big mammals are also quite intelligent compared to insects, plankton etc at the other end of the scale. You can eat meat, use leather etc and still quite rightly against keeping orcas in captivity and forcing them to perform. I am vegetarian (not vegan), but am not against a good zoo keeping animals in adequately sized enclosures for us to watch. I am against keeping intelligent creatures in small tanks and forcing them to perform. That doesn't make me a hypocrite.

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[SaiyanHajime]

Orcas don't live in small tanks at SeaWorld... I honestly don't know where this idea comes from. Yes they're small compared to the wild, but this is true of all captive animals. It makes zero sense.

Also, where are you drawing the intelligence line? Dogs aren't Intelegrnt enough? It's OK to have service dogs, performing tricks for us? Pigs aren't smart enough? It's OK to use them for meat, petting zoo amusement and ...truffle hunting? Parrots aren't smart enough? It's OK to use them for amusement? Elephants are both huge, have incredible social structures damaged by captivity, are self aware, but that's OK, right?

Why do orcas get special treatment?

You can't draw lines in the sand on animal intelligence, it's impossible. Orcas are no smarter than the other species of captive cetaceans and kept in comparatively no smaller tanks. In fact, if I was to point at any of SeaWorld's tank sizes, the Beluga's always seem to have the least space compared to their size.

But no one told anyone to care about Beluga whales. Those animals also aren't used as show species at SeaWorld (no idea why not, probably a good reason), so likely get less human enrichment to make up for their lack of predatory lifestyle.

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[Crazycoaster]

^ This is exactly how I feel about the whole thing.


When I last visited in 08 I believe the belugas were used in the whale and dolphin show they had going on. Not sure if that's true nowadays though.

 

[SilverArrow]

Now if you're against animals in captivity full stop, fine. But you better be vegan, you better only purchase products with no animals in the supply chain (impossible), have no pets, never visit theme parks with zoos, never use medicine or visit a doctor of any kind and tonnes of other essential stuff, else you're a hypocrite, be against guide dogs and other service animals, etc. Just saying.

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You're ignoring the fact that animals are of different intelligence. Humans are the most intelligent, whales and big mammals are also quite intelligent compared to insects, plankton etc at the other end of the scale. You can eat meat, use leather etc and still quite rightly against keeping orcas in captivity and forcing them to perform. I am vegetarian (not vegan), but am not against a good zoo keeping animals in adequately sized enclosures for us to watch. I am against keeping intelligent creatures in small tanks and forcing them to perform. That doesn't make me a hypocrite.

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Again with the 'forcing then to perform'. If you had read my post earlier (or knew anything about animal training) you'd know that this isn't true but obviously it sounds good and emotive so you and activists like to repetitively claim this.

Re the Beluga thing (can't double quote on mobile easily):

Belugas are used in shows at at least one of their other parks (definitely San Antonio) and the Orlando whales are still trained off show and during interactions. Would love to see Wild Arctic renovated though as I do agree about the pool size. Not sure how deep it is though or whether they have off-show housing too.

Other parks such as Vancouver Aquarium (which I highly recommend anyone to visit- they have perfected the research, education and conservation mix in my opinion and it's a lovely day out) do educational talks with includes a training demonstration.

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[lachlan]

Orcas don't live in small tanks at SeaWorld... I honestly don't know where this idea comes from. Yes they're small compared to the wild, but this is true of all captive animals. It makes zero sense.

Also, where are you drawing the intelligence line? Dogs aren't Intelegrnt enough? It's OK to have service dogs, performing tricks for us? Pigs aren't smart enough? It's OK to use them for meat, petting zoo amusement and ...truffle hunting? Parrots aren't smart enough? It's OK to use them for amusement? Elephants are both huge, have incredible social structures damaged by captivity, are self aware, but that's OK, right?

Why do orcas get special treatment?

You can't draw lines in the sand on animal intelligence, it's impossible. Orcas are no smarter than the other species of captive cetaceans and kept in comparatively no smaller tanks. In fact, if I was to point at any of SeaWorld's tank sizes, the Beluga's always seem to have the least space compared to their size.

But no one told anyone to care about Beluga whales. Those animals also aren't used as show species at SeaWorld (no idea why not, probably a good reason), so likely get less human enrichment to make up for their lack of predatory lifestyle.

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Sorry for going on, but I do feel quite strongly about this.

If it's true that orcas roam over dozens of miles in the wild then I would say the tanks are small.

There's no "intelligent line". I make my opinions on a case by case basis. Service dogs don't perform tricks like at SeaWorld. They help many disabled people be more independent and have defiantly saved many lives. Dogs have been domesticated over thousands of years, whales haven't

I'm vegetarian so I disagree with using pigs for meat. However again they are domesticated animals and meat actually has a purpose other than entertainment.

I don't know what the natural environment of a parrot is, but I am certainly against keeping parrots in the small cages you often see.

Essentially if animal is close to extinction, or the enclosure is very large to mimic the natural world, I'm fine with most zoos.

About beluga whales, I would like SeaWorld to stop breeding all its whales and stop all the performing. I don't support the "empty the tanks" movement but I would like to see them focus on the amusement park side of things.

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[Crazycoaster]

But then by the same logic, a huge portion of the animals kept in captivity roam dozens of miles in the wild. Elephants for example.

And can it be argued that these animals don't roam these incredible distances because they want to, but purely out of necessity? If they don't travel miles and miles, they starve to death. Not exactly a better way to live than in an environment dedicated to your care.

 

[SilverArrow]

Orcas don't live in small tanks at SeaWorld... I honestly don't know where this idea comes from. Yes they're small compared to the wild, but this is true of all captive animals. It makes zero sense.

Also, where are you drawing the intelligence line? Dogs aren't Intelegrnt enough? It's OK to have service dogs, performing tricks for us? Pigs aren't smart enough? It's OK to use them for meat, petting zoo amusement and ...truffle hunting? Parrots aren't smart enough? It's OK to use them for amusement? Elephants are both huge, have incredible social structures damaged by captivity, are self aware, but that's OK, right?

Why do orcas get special treatment?

You can't draw lines in the sand on animal intelligence, it's impossible. Orcas are no smarter than the other species of captive cetaceans and kept in comparatively no smaller tanks. In fact, if I was to point at any of SeaWorld's tank sizes, the Beluga's always seem to have the least space compared to their size.

But no one told anyone to care about Beluga whales. Those animals also aren't used as show species at SeaWorld (no idea why not, probably a good reason), so likely get less human enrichment to make up for their lack of predatory lifestyle.

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Sorry for going on, but I do feel quite strongly about this.

If it's true that orcas roam over dozens of miles in the wild then I would say the tanks are small.

There's no "intelligent line". I make my opinions on a case by case basis. Service dogs don't perform tricks like at SeaWorld. They help many disabled people be more independent and have defiantly saved many lives. Dogs have been domesticated over thousands of years, whales haven't

I'm vegetarian so I disagree with using pigs for meat. However again they are domesticated animals and meat actually has a purpose other than entertainment.

I don't know what the natural environment of a parrot is, but I am certainly against keeping parrots in the small cages you often see.

Essentially if animal is close to extinction, or the enclosure is very large to mimic the natural world, I'm fine with most zoos.

About beluga whales, I would like SeaWorld to stop breeding all its whales and stop all the performing. I don't support the "empty the tanks" movement but I would like to see them focus on the amusement park side of things.

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The training of service dogs is done exactly the same way as the training of Seaworld's Orcas.

Also 'Tricks' implies something magical or trickery, the behaviours they do (even more so now that they don't do water work) are pretty much all based around natural behaviours.

I think I'we've all repeated ourselves enough times now. Time to bring this discussion to a close?

Now that SeaWorld have bowed to the pressure of getting positive PR I think activists may lose quite a lot of support when people see that they'll just start lobbying for the next species to be released. A lot of people seem to care greatly about Orca but not much else (and don't follow other animal news etc).


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[lachlan]

I think I'we've all repeated ourselves enough times now. Time to bring this discussion to a close?

Yes let's agree to disagree on this

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[mouse]

Not until I get a final response in!

You have said that they are aggressive because of lack of stimulation. How do you know that? That could have been lifted straight off of an animal rights webpage. Animal behaviour is complex and a number of factors come into play at any one time. I've known animals who get startled easily, get grumpy during breeding season, prefer specific people to others, don't like change none of them were inherently 'aggressive' as a species.

I would say that killer whales do have aggressive tendencies as a species, it is vital to their survival in the wild – and those that are captive are still wild animals, compared to other zoo animals that are practically domesticated. In the wild their aggressive instincts are put to use when hunting, whereas in captivity they don’t hunt for food, yet they still have the instincts without an outlet. Human stimulation just can’t replace their wild lifestyles. That hasn’t been lifted off an animal rights website, its from scientific studies of killer whale behaviour and psychology. I could just as easily accuse you of lifting your points from Sea World’s PR spiel.

I think we can live without Orca in captivity perfectly fine I just hate when people spout stuff that is complete bullpoo or so subjective and circumstantial that it shouldn't be relied on as fact. SeaWorld have tried to spread some more truths but anything that comes from them in automatically branded as bias and wrong. Somehow people still read activist stuff like it's all true.

The same people who have made all these claims want zoos banned, everyone to be a vegetarian and not have pets so I am naturally sceptical of their agenda, having been involved with the zoo field and someone who likes to base their knowledge on fact.

I’m not sure whether you are accusing me of this, but I agree that it is very difficult to find unbiased sources of information regarding the subject. I take activist websites with a pinch of salt, as I do with PR statements released by Sea World. I’m not sure whether they are trying to ‘spread some more truths’ or save their own arses. I appreciate that you have been involved in the zoo field, and you clearly have vast knowledge on the subject, but I also like to base my knowledge on fact, and if you look back through the links I’ve posted none come from activist websites. I have considered viewpoints from both sides of the argument, as well as scientific and historical evidence, and come to my own conclusion on what my opinion of captive killer whales is.

Orcas don't live in small tanks at SeaWorld... I honestly don't know where this idea comes from. Yes they're small compared to the wild, but this is true of all captive animals. It makes zero sense.

Their enclosures are too small to provide an adequate replacement to their natural habitat, and doesn’t provide them with a sufficient amount of space to maintain a physically or mentally healthy lifestyle. It doesn’t make zero sense, all captive animals have different requirements with regards to all aspects of their care, including enclosure size.

Also, where are you drawing the intelligence line? Dogs aren't Intelegrnt enough? It's OK to have service dogs, performing tricks for us? Pigs aren't smart enough? It's OK to use them for meat, petting zoo amusement and ...truffle hunting? Parrots aren't smart enough? It's OK to use them for amusement? Elephants are both huge, have incredible social structures damaged by captivity, are self aware, but that's OK, right?

Why do you keep comparing orcas to domesticated animals as if they’re the same? Dogs have been domesticated for hundreds of years. The same goes for pigs and parrots, and to an extent elephants, whereas orcas were first captured from the wild in the 60s. Many captive elephants have been passed through zoos through generations and generations. Also, the practice of elephants performing tricks in circuses is all but condemned in many parts of the world, which reinforces the fact performing killer whales should also be.

You can't draw lines in the sand on animal intelligence, it's impossible. Orcas are no smarter than the other species of captive cetaceans and kept in comparatively no smaller tanks. In fact, if I was to point at any of SeaWorld's tank sizes, the Beluga's always seem to have the least space compared to their size.

But no one told anyone to care about Beluga whales. Those animals also aren't used as show species at SeaWorld (no idea why not, probably a good reason), so likely get less human enrichment to make up for their lack of predatory lifestyle.

A wild Beluga whale has much less of a predatory lifestyle than orcas and they generally forage for food. They also swim much slower and for shorter distances, therefore they would probably have slightly different tank requirements. By principle I’m also against other cetaceans being kept in similar conditions, however I don’t know enough about other species to have an informed opinion. I agree with you that killer whales get a lot of extra attention which can be unfair on other species, orcas definitely have the most publicity. Now that Sea World have ended their breeding programme and aim to phase out the shows I can see attention shifting to other species. There is still a lot of campaigning against all cetaceans being kept in captivity, including beluga whales. This topic (and my knowledge base) is about killer whales though, which is why I’m arguing for them and not other cetaceans.

And can it be argued that these animals don't roam these incredible distances because they want to, but purely out of necessity? If they don't travel miles and miles, they starve to death. Not exactly a better way to live than in an environment dedicated to your care.

Are you suggesting all animals should be in captivity then? They have adapted to travel that distance, to suddenly deprive them of that instinct causes distress – they don’t understand the concept of a ‘choice’ as to how they get their food. Captive elephants are different as they have been kept captive for much longer, and have been passed through zoos for many more generations – they’re practically domesticated.

The training of service dogs is done exactly the same way as the training of Seaworld's Orcas.

I’m sure I’ve covered this on a previous post. Dogs have been domesticated for 100s of years, and have lived and trained with humans for generations. It is not a fair comparison.

Also 'Tricks' implies something magical or trickery, the behaviours they do (even more so now that they don't do water work) are pretty much all based around natural behaviours.

Swimming? Jumping out of the water? Well yeah, you would see that in the wild, what else would they be expected to do? Isn’t everything animals do based on natural behaviour, as in that’s what they're capable of? Sea World constantly claim that the tricks are mimicking natural behaviour as if it justifies the performances, it doesn’t.

I think activists may lose quite a lot of support when people see that they'll just start lobbying for the next species to be released. A lot of people seem to care greatly about Orca but not much else (and don't follow other animal news etc).

You underestimate activists, they don’t just support one species at a time. There is a lot of campaigning against such a wide range of animal rights issues. Like I’ve said before, killer whales do get a disproportionate amount of publicity, they’ve certainly become a mainstream issue. That doesn’t make the practice of keeping them in these captive conditions any less immoral. Just because people are against orcas in captivity, doesn’t mean they are pro-captivity for everything else.


As lachlan said, we'll have to agree to disagree. Nevertheless thanks for the debate .

 

[SaiyanHajime]

Oh don't think you can end this so easily...

Firstly, parrots are not domesticated. They are identical to their wild counterparts, just bred in captivity... Like the orcas. And like the orcas, they are extremely intelligent, some of them definitely more so than an orca, capable of learning to communicate with humans. Not just mimic, but communicate. Gorillas have also been taught to communicate on our terms, using sign language instead of vocalisations. Some of the smarter parrots have had their inelegance compared to a 2 year old human, but I'd argue it goes above that.

Domesticated species ARE different, sure. Wolves probably domesticated themselves, but look at what we've done to them. Many dog breeds suffer from the alterations humans have made to them physically. To purposefully breed pedigree dogs with known health problems is cruel, really cruel.

But, plucking animals from the wild is also cruel... But all captive animals todsy were once wild. It's tricky. For all existing captive animals, I see no problem with continuing their captivity with breeding. For new captive species, unless there is a DAMN good reason, no. And by damn good reason, attempted captive breeding that will protect and produce offspring for the wild.

As for the belugas... We've been through that the orcas get enough exercise to mimic their wild long distance swim. Their tanks are huge, they have plenty of room to move, to exercise. It's a non issue that they cannot swim hundreds of miles.

Most orca tricks are based on wild behaviour - wild animals beach themselves to hunt land prey, they jump for their own amusement, splash walls of bubbles to confuse and trap prey, etc. Frankly I don't care - any trick by any animal is utilising some skill they have and repurposed it and is good enrichment, just like us using our eyes, brain, hands and communication skills to argue online is. These are not natural skills, they're repurposed.

Captive elephants are definitely not different. Whilst they don't perform in captivity, their family groups are impossible to recreate in captive environments. They rarely have the luxury of room orcas at SeaWorld get, either. Check out the elephant sanctuary in Tennessee for more info - they take on female only ex zoo ellies to create a more natural life for them.

And it does matter that people focus on the orca - most of the anti seaworld brigade are NOT ACTIVISTS and theyre not even anti captive orcas, just anti seaworld. They're the same people who are anti Smiler reopening. They've been told this thing is an issue, whilst they continue to scoff battery caged chicken eggs.

As for aggressive orcas - they're apex predators, they're aggressive by default. They're not aggressive because they're in captivity. Human enrichment is a brilliant replacement for wild lifestyle for ALL intelligent species and for most other animals too - it just varies in execution from literal interaction (less a good idea as risk of injury to humans) to providing toys, training, etc.

Animals are like people, people are animals - they will just sit there and get bored without stimulation. In the wild, they don't have time to be bored, because their lives are constantly at risk if they don't find food etc. So boredom for captive animals, and ourselves, is easy to slip into. We don't need to entertain ourselves only by the means of of wild ancestors, we can use a TV.


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[SilverArrow]

Not until I get a final response in!

You have said that they are aggressive because of lack of stimulation. How do you know that? That could have been lifted straight off of an animal rights webpage. Animal behaviour is complex and a number of factors come into play at any one time. I've known animals who get startled easily, get grumpy during breeding season, prefer specific people to others, don't like change none of them were inherently 'aggressive' as a species.

I would say that killer whales do have aggressive tendencies as a species, it is vital to their survival in the wild – and those that are captive are still wild animals, compared to other zoo animals that are practically domesticated. In the wild their aggressive instincts are put to use when hunting, whereas in captivity they don’t hunt for food, yet they still have the instincts without an outlet. Human stimulation just can’t replace their wild lifestyles. That hasn’t been lifted off an animal rights website, its from scientific studies of killer whale behaviour and psychology. I could just as easily accuse you of lifting your points from Sea World’s PR spiel.

I think we can live without Orca in captivity perfectly fine I just hate when people spout stuff that is complete bullpoo or so subjective and circumstantial that it shouldn't be relied on as fact. SeaWorld have tried to spread some more truths but anything that comes from them in automatically branded as bias and wrong. Somehow people still read activist stuff like it's all true.

The same people who have made all these claims want zoos banned, everyone to be a vegetarian and not have pets so I am naturally sceptical of their agenda, having been involved with the zoo field and someone who likes to base their knowledge on fact.

I’m not sure whether you are accusing me of this, but I agree that it is very difficult to find unbiased sources of information regarding the subject. I take activist websites with a pinch of salt, as I do with PR statements released by Sea World. I’m not sure whether they are trying to ‘spread some more truths’ or save their own arses. I appreciate that you have been involved in the zoo field, and you clearly have vast knowledge on the subject, but I also like to base my knowledge on fact, and if you look back through the links I’ve posted none come from activist websites. I have considered viewpoints from both sides of the argument, as well as scientific and historical evidence, and come to my own conclusion on what my opinion of captive killer whales is.

Orcas don't live in small tanks at SeaWorld... I honestly don't know where this idea comes from. Yes they're small compared to the wild, but this is true of all captive animals. It makes zero sense.

Their enclosures are too small to provide an adequate replacement to their natural habitat, and doesn’t provide them with a sufficient amount of space to maintain a physically or mentally healthy lifestyle. It doesn’t make zero sense, all captive animals have different requirements with regards to all aspects of their care, including enclosure size.

Also, where are you drawing the intelligence line? Dogs aren't Intelegrnt enough? It's OK to have service dogs, performing tricks for us? Pigs aren't smart enough? It's OK to use them for meat, petting zoo amusement and ...truffle hunting? Parrots aren't smart enough? It's OK to use them for amusement? Elephants are both huge, have incredible social structures damaged by captivity, are self aware, but that's OK, right?

Why do you keep comparing orcas to domesticated animals as if they’re the same? Dogs have been domesticated for hundreds of years. The same goes for pigs and parrots, and to an extent elephants, whereas orcas were first captured from the wild in the 60s. Many captive elephants have been passed through zoos through generations and generations. Also, the practice of elephants performing tricks in circuses is all but condemned in many parts of the world, which reinforces the fact performing killer whales should also be.

You can't draw lines in the sand on animal intelligence, it's impossible. Orcas are no smarter than the other species of captive cetaceans and kept in comparatively no smaller tanks. In fact, if I was to point at any of SeaWorld's tank sizes, the Beluga's always seem to have the least space compared to their size.

But no one told anyone to care about Beluga whales. Those animals also aren't used as show species at SeaWorld (no idea why not, probably a good reason), so likely get less human enrichment to make up for their lack of predatory lifestyle.

A wild Beluga whale has much less of a predatory lifestyle than orcas and they generally forage for food. They also swim much slower and for shorter distances, therefore they would probably have slightly different tank requirements. By principle I’m also against other cetaceans being kept in similar conditions, however I don’t know enough about other species to have an informed opinion. I agree with you that killer whales get a lot of extra attention which can be unfair on other species, orcas definitely have the most publicity. Now that Sea World have ended their breeding programme and aim to phase out the shows I can see attention shifting to other species. There is still a lot of campaigning against all cetaceans being kept in captivity, including beluga whales. This topic (and my knowledge base) is about killer whales though, which is why I’m arguing for them and not other cetaceans.

And can it be argued that these animals don't roam these incredible distances because they want to, but purely out of necessity? If they don't travel miles and miles, they starve to death. Not exactly a better way to live than in an environment dedicated to your care.

Are you suggesting all animals should be in captivity then? They have adapted to travel that distance, to suddenly deprive them of that instinct causes distress – they don’t understand the concept of a ‘choice’ as to how they get their food. Captive elephants are different as they have been kept captive for much longer, and have been passed through zoos for many more generations – they’re practically domesticated.

The training of service dogs is done exactly the same way as the training of Seaworld's Orcas.

I’m sure I’ve covered this on a previous post. Dogs have been domesticated for 100s of years, and have lived and trained with humans for generations. It is not a fair comparison.

Also 'Tricks' implies something magical or trickery, the behaviours they do (even more so now that they don't do water work) are pretty much all based around natural behaviours.

Swimming? Jumping out of the water? Well yeah, you would see that in the wild, what else would they be expected to do? Isn’t everything animals do based on natural behaviour, as in that’s what they're capable of? Sea World constantly claim that the tricks are mimicking natural behaviour as if it justifies the performances, it doesn’t.

I think activists may lose quite a lot of support when people see that they'll just start lobbying for the next species to be released. A lot of people seem to care greatly about Orca but not much else (and don't follow other animal news etc).

You underestimate activists, they don’t just support one species at a time. There is a lot of campaigning against such a wide range of animal rights issues. Like I’ve said before, killer whales do get a disproportionate amount of publicity, they’ve certainly become a mainstream issue. That doesn’t make the practice of keeping them in these captive conditions any less immoral. Just because people are against orcas in captivity, doesn’t mean they are pro-captivity for everything else.


As lachlan said, we'll have to agree to disagree. Nevertheless thanks for the debate .

So by your logic all animals that are predators are aggressive species??? I won't even bother answering that.

Swim and jump, yes they do? What else so you expect Orca to do?

The fact that you keep suggesting that the training is forces and are suggesting that circus elephant training is akin to marine mammal training (of which they are literally poles apart) shows how little you know about animal training. (It clearly requires more than an A/AS level long essay project to look into that properly!)

So much more to say but you've obviously done 'tonnes' of research so why why waste time eh!

I also wouldn't call zoo elephants domesticated but that's another story for another day.

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[mouse]

I never claimed to be an expert on animal training, however they are trained it doesn't justify them being in captivity. I've already explained my reasoning for being against Sea World and its killer whales so won't repeat anything. You can respond with as much Sea World apologist spiel as you want, but I just don't think that this:

Will ever be an adequate replacement to this:

Especially when there is no longer a good reason to keep them in captivity.


But hey, I have a feeling the practice will die out in time thanks to Sea World ending their breeding programme. So thats good :wink:.