Pro-life or Pro-choice?

[SaiyanHajime]

I hate this absurd idea that an abortion is running away from responsibility, when if anything... It's being the most responsible any human being could be. :/


Regarding "cut off dates", as far as I'm concerned it's asking an unanswerable question and the "cut off date" should be set at the line drawn by nature, birth. Though I question anyone who's waited THAT LONG to make the decision, and for that reason I find the 21 weeks reasonable. If you're taking longer than that to make the decision, I'd be worried that no matter what decision is made you're going to regret it. The cut off date isn't about the potential life, it's about the parent. It's all about the potential parent.

A foetus, during the period that most abortions take place, is about as human like as a **** slug. In reality, a potential person is only a potential person if they are wanted. The personification of individuals until they develop their own is in the hands of the parent. If they create a person because they want a child, they will be sad if they loose it and grieve it, if not they won't. Again, it's all in the hands of the parent. People find this idea difficult, but it's because those with children or who want them or who feel affinity towards the idea cannot remove that instinct, that desire, that "need" to perceive it as a person. Doing so increases your likeliness to take serious care of it, before and after it's birth. This idea strays as far as to apply to inanimate objects. It makes no sense, but it's a survival tactic. Welcome to evolutionary psychology.

Note that a PERSON is not the same as a HUMAN life.

"Life" isn't valuable to us, that would defy the very concept of value. Plants are alive, but we don't treat them with the same respect as animals because they lack sentience. It's sentience that matters. It's acquiring a personhood that matters.

Application of a personhood to your own potential human life is fine, but don't expect anyone else to do the same.

This (almost), so therefore the only sensible option is Pro-Choice

I've never heard a single valid argument for being against abortion, but if even if there was, you'd still be right.

It is just one of those "don't like it? don't do it" situations.

 

[LiveForTheLaunch]

So, in the opinion of Taylor, it's OK to have the kids and then just hand it over to social services and let them deal with it. Not a very fair and pleasant existence if you ask me.

Yep, because even if the kid doesn't have a happy childhood it's eventually gonna go to someone who loves it and be given a chance at life. I'd rather that than see it die, and just because this is my opinion I'm not gonna have people speak brash towards me . If a thirteen year old or something got raped and got pregnant, then fair dues yeah get an abortion. I still think adoption would be better, but at least there's a REASON to get one. If you're 20 and say you're "not ready" then there's no excuse.

This might stem from the fact that 1) I can't have kids and it angers me that some people find abortion a fun game or 2) I was about an hour away from being aborted myself and the fact that my mom wasn't ready but still was able to change her mind and raise me to become a decent and ambitious human being.

 

[Patrick]

I am very strongly pro-life, apart from in circumstances of rape or if the pregnancy will put the mother at risk.

People need to remember that sex is meant for reproduction, not pleasure. If pregnancy occurs, then that's just natural and consequences must be faced. It simply disgusts me that girls have abortions after one night stands when there are adoptive parents unable to have children themselves, who would probably bring the kid up well instead of ending it's life before it is even born.

 

[kimahri]

I still don't get the whole adoption side of the argument. If what Jordan said is true and there's 500,000 kids bombing around in foster care then there's obviously not a short supply of kids for adoption. I mean there's ad's in the metro tunnels here for adoption. Isn't it not equally as wrong to dump the kid that's already born, sentient and able to gain a personality on someone else? The Pro-life people keep bringing up the fact it's their fault and responsibility for said baby so shoving said responsibility on someone else rather than take the decision to bring kid up in a **** enviroment or kill it off before it have any chance to experience it. You're also saying it's ending a life, that's a pretty big decision on someone in it's self as well.

Ok granted that some people take the consept of abortion too casually but meh, I follow a life style of each to their own. If the mother wants to get the father in so they can both decide on the childs life. That's what I'd do if I had a wife (Forever aloooooone). If it ends up in an argument between the two then I won't agree with it but it's their choice on dealing with the matter. I think I'm rambling so I'll stop. WORDS! TOO MANY OF THEM!

 

[LiveForTheLaunch]

^ Why does everyone act like people who have abortions are gonna raise the baby in a crap environment? Many people I know have simply said they didn't want it or weren't ready. That's not an excuse. And yeah there might be a lot of kids who will never get adopted but even so, they'll get a chance at life so I'd rather them have that. It's not SHOVING the responsibility on someone else, it's giving someone else the chance to have a kid who might not otherwise be able to.

I know MANY people with VERY low incomes who thought they weren't ready, who have been able to bring up a child incredibly well.

 

[nadroJ]

^Because a lot of women who have abortions have them because they don't feel they have the......tools, I suppose is the word, to raise a child properly and give it the quality of life it deserves.

And also, a lot of kids brought up in foster care (not adoptive families) end up leading pretty **** lifestyles, mainly due to a lack of routine/normality in their lives.

Adoption is a fair point, I'll give you that. But the fact remains that I don't think it's fair to undermine pregnancy in the way the pro-life argument does. It's a HUGE thing. And at the same time, yes, a very normal thing. And many women will tell you they adored being pregnant. But part of this is that they were looking forward to having the child and this makes it easier to get through the hard times. Whatever way you look at it, pregnancy is always a life threatening position to find yourself in, obviously less so nowadays and in the western world, but it is still life threatening nonetheless. And I can't imagine how awful it must be to endure knowing that you will have no 'reward' at the end of it (taking a baby home and creating a family) because you'll be giving that child away, because you don't want it.

And Patrick, I think you'll find that as developed human beings, sex is for reproduction AND pleasure, and I'm willing to bet that most of us have it far more often for one of those reasons and the other.

And also, the majority of women who have abortions are not using it like a form of contraception. It's not a decision to be taken lightly and, it can be easily argued, as emotionally harrowing as pregnancy itself. This is another thing that bothers me about the pro-life argument, it seems to be under the impression that if we're pro-choice we'll just go and have an abortion willy-nilly, like it's a very casual thing to us. It's not. It's as big a decision a person can ever make in their life.

 

[LiveForTheLaunch]

^ I'm not saying being in an adoption centre or whatever is the best life for a kid. It's not, but at least it has a chance at one and even as it grows up it can make its way in the world by itself. In the case of a life being threatened by pregnancy, I said that's the only case I agree with abortion being right. Like I said, just because you don't "think" you have the tools, in terms of financial stuff and money, that's not all it takes to raise a kid. I'm sure it IS emotionally difficult to be pregnant and give your kid away but I think I'd find that a lot less stressful than killing it.

 

[Xpress]

So... Most have voted for "Pro Murder"...

I voted "Pro-Life", because I believe that any human being should have a chance, regardless of whether or not it has been born, or is wanted by the birth mother.

but everyone has their own opinions..

 

[nadroJ]

In the case of a life being threatened by pregnancy, I said that's the only case I agree with abortion being right.

Yes, and pregnancy is ALWAYS potentially life threatening. There is ALWAYS a chance you can die from pregnancy and giving birth, always.

 

[Xpress]

While that may be so... The chances are so slim it's almost not even a valid argument. Medical technology and understanding is at an all time high these days.

So as long as you go to someone who has significant experience, and a medical team to back him/her, and NOT one of those $5 baby bangers, then you shouldn't have much worries at all.

Of course none of us can actually vouch for child birth from a first hand point of view.

 

[nadroJ]

I just think, in the case of the pro-life argument, people make light of what pregnancy actually is, the risks you take by going through it and the extremely tough experience it actually is. I think people need to think about what they say when they dismiss pregnancy so lightly.

 

[LiveForTheLaunch]

Yes, and pregnancy is ALWAYS potentially life threatening. There is ALWAYS a chance you can die from pregnancy and giving birth, always.

That's a bit dumb. ANYTHING you do is a risk to your life, if you want to put it like that. Going to the shops is putting your life at risk, and going on a coaster could kill you, too. The chances of it happening are pretty darn slim, and I think it was obvious that I meant a medically diagnosed chance of dying throughout birth or pregnancy.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

I'd rather that than see it die,

Why?

I was about an hour away from being aborted myself and the fact that my mom wasn't ready but still was able to change her mind and raise me to become a decent and ambitious human being.

So?

The fact that you turned out fab has nothing to do with it. Only you have the perception to enjoy your life first hand. If you didn't exist, it wouldn't be a case of not enjoying your life, it would be a case of there being nothingness. No ability to enjoy or not enjoy. Do you see the difference? One matters, one doesn't.

Dying, or not existing, does not effect the individual who dies. It's irrelevant how **** or great their life could potentially turn out being.

The ONLY people who matter when concerning abortions are the parents, particularly the mother. She is the only one who will truly suffer or improve her life as a direct result of her decision. The foetus is irrelevant.

So... Most have voted for "Pro Murder"...

I voted "Pro-Life", because I believe that any human being should have a chance, regardless of whether or not it has been born, or is wanted by the birth mother.

but everyone has their own opinions..

Your point is exactly why pro choice is the only sensible decision.

and I think it was obvious that I meant a medically diagnosed chance of dying throughout birth or pregnancy.

It is actually a rather high chance or suffering from complications. Human's sacrifice easy childbirth that other mammals enjoy for brain power. Unfortunately, most people lack both.

 

[nadroJ]

I'm pretty sure going on a rollercoaster/going to the shops doesn't carry a list as extensive as this:

Normal, frequent or expectable temporary side effects of pregnancy:

exhaustion (weariness common from first weeks)
altered appetite and senses of taste and smell
nausea and vomiting (50% of women, first trimester)
heartburn and indigestion
constipation
weight gain
dizziness and light-headedness
bloating, swelling, fluid retention
hemmorhoids
abdominal cramps
yeast infections
congested, bloody nose
acne and mild skin disorders
skin discoloration (chloasma, face and abdomen)
mild to severe backache and strain
increased headaches
difficulty sleeping, and discomfort while sleeping
increased urination and incontinence
bleeding gums
pica
breast pain and discharge
swelling of joints, leg cramps, joint pain
difficulty sitting, standing in later pregnancy
inability to take regular medications
shortness of breath
higher blood pressure
hair loss
tendency to anemia
curtailment of ability to participate in some sports and activities
infection including from serious and potentially fatal disease
(pregnant women are immune suppressed compared with non-pregnant women, and
are more susceptible to fungal and certain other diseases)
extreme pain on delivery
hormonal mood changes, including normal post-partum depression
continued post-partum exhaustion and recovery period (exacerbated if a c-section -- major surgery -- is required, sometimes taking up to a full year to fully recover)

Normal, expectable, or frequent PERMANENT side effects of pregnancy:

stretch marks (worse in younger women)
loose skin
permanent weight gain or redistribution
abdominal and vaginal muscle weakness
pelvic floor disorder (occurring in as many as 35% of middle-aged former child-bearers and 50% of elderly former child-bearers, associated with urinary and rectal incontinence, discomfort and reduced quality of life)
changes to breasts
varicose veins
scarring from episiotomy or c-section
other permanent aesthetic changes to the body (all of these are downplayed by women, because the culture values youth and beauty)
increased proclivity for hemmorhoids
loss of dental and bone calcium (cavities and osteoporosis)

Occasional complications and side effects:

spousal/partner abuse
hyperemesis gravidarum
temporary and permanent injury to back
severe scarring requiring later surgery (especially after additional pregnancies)
dropped (prolapsed) uterus (especially after additional pregnancies, and other pelvic floor weaknesses -- 11% of women, including cystocele, rectocele, and enterocele)
pre-eclampsia (edema and hypertension, the most common complication of pregnancy, associated with eclampsia, and affecting 7 - 10% of pregnancies)
eclampsia (convulsions, coma during pregnancy or labor, high risk of death)
gestational diabetes
placenta previa
anemia (which can be life-threatening)
thrombocytopenic purpura
severe cramping
embolism (blood clots)
medical disability requiring full bed rest (frequently ordered during part of many pregnancies varying from days to months for health of either mother or baby)
diastasis recti, also torn abdominal muscles
mitral valve stenosis (most common cardiac complication)
serious infection and disease (e.g. increased risk of tuberculosis)
hormonal imbalance
ectopic pregnancy (risk of death)
broken bones (ribcage, "tail bone")
hemorrhage and
numerous other complications of delivery
refractory gastroesophageal reflux disease
aggravation of pre-pregnancy diseases and conditions (e.g. epilepsy is present in .5% of pregnant women, and the pregnancy alters drug metabolism and treatment prospects all the while it increases the number and frequency of seizures)
severe post-partum depression and psychosis
research now indicates a possible link between ovarian cancer and female fertility treatments, including "egg harvesting" from infertile women and donors
research also now indicates correlations between lower breast cancer survival rates and proximity in time to onset of cancer of last pregnancy
research also indicates a correlation between having six or more pregnancies and a risk of coronary and cardiovascular disease

Less common (but serious) complications:

peripartum cardiomyopathy
cardiopulmonary arrest
magnesium toxicity
severe hypoxemia/acidosis
massive embolism
increased intracranial pressure, brainstem infarction
molar pregnancy, gestational trophoblastic disease (like a pregnancy-induced cancer)
malignant arrhythmia
circulatory collapse
placental abruption
obstetric fistula

More permanent side effects:
future infertility
permanent disability
death.

So yeah, pretty sure pregnancy is a bigger risk to take in your life. Also found out that in 2004 the maternal death rate in America was 13%, which is pretty high if you ask me.

 

[Venom2053]

I found this interesting this graph shows how many abortions and at what time in the pregnancy they take place in the UK. Note that it is that 6th week that the organs being growing and in the second trimester is when the "baby" begins to move.

*Graph from 2004*

 

[nadroJ]

^Think how different that graph would look if abortions weren't legal </3

 

[Ben]

Also found out that in 2004 the maternal death rate in America was 13%, which is pretty high if you ask me.

Um.

No.

Sierra Leone has the highest in the World, at 1%. The United States would have been 13 in 100,000. Which is NOT 13%.

Imagine if 13% of mothers got spited during birth! That'd mean about one in every 8 children wouldn't have a mother... That's... obscene.

Oh Jordan <//3

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternal_death

Also, it's not "pro-murder". Murder is the act of pre-emptively killing another person. A fetus isn't a person...

 

[Venom2053]

Also, it's not "pro-murder". Murder is the act of pre-emptively killing another person. A fetus isn't a person...

Argeed but when does the fetus become a person? Is it 17 weeks when they begin to look like a baby or 38 weeks when they have full bodily functions?

 

[Hixee]

Also, it's not "pro-murder". Murder is the act of pre-emptively killing another person. A fetus isn't a person...

Argeed but when does the fetus become a person? Is it 17 weeks when they begin to look like a baby or 38 weeks when they have full bodily functions?

Well that's the million dollar question isn't it?! I think the current limit it set due to something to do with the nervous system being pretty much in tact. I don't know for sure though, but the nerves thing seems to come up quite often...

 

[SaiyanHajime]

As far as I'm concerned, the nervous system doesn't have much to do with being a "person".

The nervous system comes up because it's to do with feeling pain. We talk about pain a lot when discussing killing things. It's why we have certain laws about how to kill a cow, why it's okay to boil a lobster alive but not a ... chicken, and why there are no vegetable rights like there are animal rights.

Being a person is a cognitive thing. It's the phenomenon of consciousness. Surely?

If we're talking literally, I'm pretty sure than even babies aren't "people" until they show some definite sign of individuality and ability to comprehend wtf is going on. A mostly sensory numb freshly born derp is not a person, really.

But for the sake of a logical cut off point, birth. Besides, like I said before, if you've got quite far through your pregnancy without making the decision, then I'd worry that whatever decision you make is going to haunt you. Being "on the fence" never ends well. The 21 week rule makes sense, is moral and fair.

I can understand people feeling some sort of moral obligation to a foetus after 21 weeks, but what is so special about the moment of conception? Why isn't every sperm and egg seen as a "potential person" by you guys too? It's just sillyness.