tommylawrence
Roller Poster
It's a world first, but do u think that people should adapt the desgin like they did with the Dive Machine or the Inverted coaster, or just leave it be?
More from rides like Thirteen?
- Thread starter tommylawrence
- Start date
I don't think we're going to be seeing too many of these, if any really. The only thing you can adapt to this type of ride is a higher vertical drop. Other versions could include inversions I suppose but the selling point is the drop and I imagine it's a complicated bit of kit and it's evolution will be very gradual.
CreditCrazy
Hyper Poster
SnooSnoo said:
It doesn't have to be a kiddie ride...I think with a more exciting first half and bigger drop, a ride like Th13teen could be a really good coaster.
Nemesis Inferno
Strata Poster
It could work a lot better if the ride was done a lot differently (Dark ride portion leading to the drop, followed by coaster portion, possibly with a launch)...
It won't take off a lot though really... Just can't see it... There's not much bang for you buck...
It won't take off a lot though really... Just can't see it... There's not much bang for you buck...
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
I feel, rather strongly, that in the case of the dive machine what they "added" to it actually distracts too much from the point of the ride - to dive. Sheikra's and Griffon's drops aren't as good, conceptually, as Oblivion's and only Griffon's second drop is anywhere near as good in a visceral sense.
With 13 it's quite different, because the main element, whilst I think it was good, wasn't anywhere near as conceptually strong. The theming and the buildup just wasn't there and the element itself is one that relies entirely on being unexpected and unusual. So the rest of the ride needs to be a "normal" roller coaster and have a point of it's own without the drop. It would also help if the park did not telling everyone about the part of the ride that relies solely on being a unexpected.
With 13 it's quite different, because the main element, whilst I think it was good, wasn't anywhere near as conceptually strong. The theming and the buildup just wasn't there and the element itself is one that relies entirely on being unexpected and unusual. So the rest of the ride needs to be a "normal" roller coaster and have a point of it's own without the drop. It would also help if the park did not telling everyone about the part of the ride that relies solely on being a unexpected.
MouseAT
Hyper Poster
Th13teen is a strange one. It could have been an amazing ride if a bit more effort had been made in places. It was clearly never going to be the uber-thrill ride that it was made out to be, but it could have been incredible regardless - except that corners were cut, and Merlin once again held back.
I can't see the drop/reverse elements being used in any generic coaster. If you're just looking to build a standard, un-themed outdoor coaster, I'm sure B&M or Intamin will build something big and intimidating to draw the crowds at lower cost than a complex attraction such as Th13teen.
There are a few parks that could probably make the concept work, but those are the parks that really are prepared to throw money at giving everything a cohesive theme. We're talking Busch Gardens or Disney levels of commitment here. If you're going to do a half assed job of it (as Merlin have done), why bother? You'll not have the "world first" gimmick, so unless you're going to make it truly spectacular, you're just going to disappoint people.
I can't see the drop/reverse elements being used in any generic coaster. If you're just looking to build a standard, un-themed outdoor coaster, I'm sure B&M or Intamin will build something big and intimidating to draw the crowds at lower cost than a complex attraction such as Th13teen.
There are a few parks that could probably make the concept work, but those are the parks that really are prepared to throw money at giving everything a cohesive theme. We're talking Busch Gardens or Disney levels of commitment here. If you're going to do a half assed job of it (as Merlin have done), why bother? You'll not have the "world first" gimmick, so unless you're going to make it truly spectacular, you're just going to disappoint people.
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
Whilst I do not expect everyone to agree with me that only Griffon's second drop is better than Oblivions, and even then it's just NOT as conceptually strong, and thus not as immersive or as breathtaking or as emotionally powerful, you've not ridden Griffon or Oblivion. Am I right?UC said:
It's hard to explain why Oblivion's drop is better, and it is TOTALLY possible it's mostly nostalgic, but in this particular instance you are not the person to be saying "I disagree" because the opinion requires you to have experienced what I'm talking about.
I was very underwhelmed with the big dive machines. One thing you're right about though, imo, is that they are about something other than the drop. Well. No, actually. They aren't intended to be, I don't think - and this is why they are not conceptually as strong as Oblivion - but I think Sheikra is better than Griffon despite Griffon having the better drop. It's become about more. Sheikra is, as a ride in a pure visceral sense and with hindsight alone, is the better of the 3. Why? It's the most overall enjoyable on ride experience and that odd force you get on the twist out of the immelman is ****ing amazing.
Oblivion is possibly the best spectator ride I've witnessed. Griffon is better than Sheikra at delivering a spectator performance, due to the bridge and the layout of the entrance area and the fact that it's at a nicer park to begin with. But even it's prettyness and scale can begin to compare to Oblivion's focused attention on that drop.
Nemesis Inferno
Strata Poster
^I was rather underwhelmed by the American DMs as well Joey...
It may have something to do with the pull out from the drop on Oblivion in comparison to them... It felt in the US and lot more gradual rather than 'tight'...
SheiKra is one of the B&Ms I've come off going, "Oh... Was that it?"...
Griffon was better, but Oblivion I think still has the old B&M force mantra that rides like Kumba and Batman have... Hence I think it wins...
It may have something to do with the pull out from the drop on Oblivion in comparison to them... It felt in the US and lot more gradual rather than 'tight'...
SheiKra is one of the B&Ms I've come off going, "Oh... Was that it?"...
Griffon was better, but Oblivion I think still has the old B&M force mantra that rides like Kumba and Batman have... Hence I think it wins...
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
And whilst we seem to differ on which was better, Sheikra or Griffon, we seem to agree that Oblivion is better.
Since we're all from the UK, though, it would be nice to see what Americans who've riden Oblivion after Sheikra and/or Griffon say and see if this does have a lot to do with nostalgia, and an "understanding" of Oblivion's psychology that isn't avalible to others (or that simply, doesn't exist.)
Back to 13, though, I really think the issue is that it needs to be seen, by the public, as a normal roller coaster with nothing particually special - but is still worth riding. The outdoors section should be at least partially visable and demonstrate that, whilst thrilling and fun, it's just a roller coaster. Guests can be made aware that "something" happens inside the building, but there's no need for them to suspect anything more than special affects and themed features.
The concept for 13, and likely the only bit Wardley came up with, is good. The execution of it, debatable. But falling through floorboards/scaffolding in a castle ruins into a basement of ghouls is a nice idea.
Also, did anyone make the connection between the backwards section and that it felt like you were being dragged backwards through trees and rubble? I don't know if this was intentional, but that's what I made from the little themeing available. I hope it was intentional.
Since we're all from the UK, though, it would be nice to see what Americans who've riden Oblivion after Sheikra and/or Griffon say and see if this does have a lot to do with nostalgia, and an "understanding" of Oblivion's psychology that isn't avalible to others (or that simply, doesn't exist.)
Back to 13, though, I really think the issue is that it needs to be seen, by the public, as a normal roller coaster with nothing particually special - but is still worth riding. The outdoors section should be at least partially visable and demonstrate that, whilst thrilling and fun, it's just a roller coaster. Guests can be made aware that "something" happens inside the building, but there's no need for them to suspect anything more than special affects and themed features.
The concept for 13, and likely the only bit Wardley came up with, is good. The execution of it, debatable. But falling through floorboards/scaffolding in a castle ruins into a basement of ghouls is a nice idea.
Also, did anyone make the connection between the backwards section and that it felt like you were being dragged backwards through trees and rubble? I don't know if this was intentional, but that's what I made from the little themeing available. I hope it was intentional.
A
Anonymous
Guest
I think you should leave it be for a few years, but when technology advances and your still stuck at the ride you think is getting boring, you should change it.
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
Oblivion's isn't particularly themed. It uses the drop itself as a vehicle for limited themeing. Sheikra, and certainly Griffon, are actually more heavily themed visually.
Since Sheikra and Griffon both picked drop related themes, they are definitely about "the drop". The point of adding more is obvious, but the rides are about the drop.
And before you say Griffon's theme isn't about the drop, well it is less so than Sheikra, but it's logo design and the fact that they changed the spelling of a word specifically to highlight the drops, in a similar way to Oblivion's logo, says otherwise.
13 is about it's drop too, but, surprise surprise - it has more to it. Sheikra and Griffon use the rest of the ride to transform the drop into a true roller coaster. They do it successfully, but in doing so they distract from the drop so much as to ruin the concept of the drop.
And lets see what Bolliger and Mabillard sell the B&M dive machine as...
"The straight, vertical drop with riders facing downwards creates a completely different experience. The uniqueness of the ride is enhanced by the configuration of the trains."
...Well, of course they do - because they are about the drop. 3 out of the 4 pictures they use are also the drops on various models.
The rest of the ride just transforms Oblivion from a drop where people go "is that it?" into a true roller coaster. Oblivion isn't the best roller coaster, no ones saying it is, in my opinion Sheikra is... but it's the best immersive ride experience and it's got the best element of the 3.
All 3 coasters are designed to be spectator rides, and the American ones have like you say their focal points - but the inversions are not one of them. Ask any member of the public to explain the ride and I bet you'd get "it goes straight down and there's a part where you g through water!!"
You're missing the point a bit I feel. You now keep going on about how they have more to them to complete the experience, and that was exactly what I was suggesting... But that doesn't change the fact they are about the drop. It's like saying that garnish and the bread roll that comes with your meal mean that whatever you ordered wasn't about the main item on your plate, a steak for example, but about the ENTIRE thing including the garnish that you probably wont touch and the bred roll that will fill you up when you really didn't need filling up. If those items weren't there (like on Oblivion) you notice they are gone, but do you really need them? No.
How you work out that you know any more about the design process from a conceptual pov is beyond me. I know **** all about how the engineering side of coasters are designed, true, but this isn't relevant in the slightest.
Since Sheikra and Griffon both picked drop related themes, they are definitely about "the drop". The point of adding more is obvious, but the rides are about the drop.
And before you say Griffon's theme isn't about the drop, well it is less so than Sheikra, but it's logo design and the fact that they changed the spelling of a word specifically to highlight the drops, in a similar way to Oblivion's logo, says otherwise.
13 is about it's drop too, but, surprise surprise - it has more to it. Sheikra and Griffon use the rest of the ride to transform the drop into a true roller coaster. They do it successfully, but in doing so they distract from the drop so much as to ruin the concept of the drop.
And lets see what Bolliger and Mabillard sell the B&M dive machine as...
"The straight, vertical drop with riders facing downwards creates a completely different experience. The uniqueness of the ride is enhanced by the configuration of the trains."
...Well, of course they do - because they are about the drop. 3 out of the 4 pictures they use are also the drops on various models.
The rest of the ride just transforms Oblivion from a drop where people go "is that it?" into a true roller coaster. Oblivion isn't the best roller coaster, no ones saying it is, in my opinion Sheikra is... but it's the best immersive ride experience and it's got the best element of the 3.
All 3 coasters are designed to be spectator rides, and the American ones have like you say their focal points - but the inversions are not one of them. Ask any member of the public to explain the ride and I bet you'd get "it goes straight down and there's a part where you g through water!!"
You're missing the point a bit I feel. You now keep going on about how they have more to them to complete the experience, and that was exactly what I was suggesting... But that doesn't change the fact they are about the drop. It's like saying that garnish and the bread roll that comes with your meal mean that whatever you ordered wasn't about the main item on your plate, a steak for example, but about the ENTIRE thing including the garnish that you probably wont touch and the bred roll that will fill you up when you really didn't need filling up. If those items weren't there (like on Oblivion) you notice they are gone, but do you really need them? No.
How you work out that you know any more about the design process from a conceptual pov is beyond me. I know **** all about how the engineering side of coasters are designed, true, but this isn't relevant in the slightest.
Gazza
Giga Poster
Are Australians welcome to comment too? :lol:
I have ridden both Oblivion and SheiKra, and have no real bias towards one or the other (Have only been to each place once)
Sorry, I don't have the energy for an essay, but I'll try to sound intelligent.
I thought SheiKra was better than Oblivion, but they were both good.
I guess I liked SheiKra more because it did more, and the other tricks were good ones too. Plus I thought the drop was better. The 3rd row means more of a kick of air in the back seat than Oblivion could do (I thought the air going over the top Oblivions drop was near non existent)
Yeah, the misty tunnel is kind of cool, but Sheikra has that too doesn't it, though not as dark.
Oblivion sort of felt like a drop tower with a circuit, though that's not a bad thing (Certainly has excellent re-ride value, the sort of thing you can jump straight back on and not get bored). I think the story was well done, but I guess the theme is more communicated via the video screens. Everything else is not too different from those other big coasters with the 'harsh/edgy' look in the station and queue (X2 for instance)
Sheikra to me is a bit like an exaggerated 'caricature' of conventional loopers, and I think this is a perfectly valid application of the dive machine concept. It gains it's uniqueness from the 'bigness' of everything..The drop showcasing its full height, that massive immelmann, bigger trains (More the case on the 3 newest dive machines I guess) etc
Furthermore, the pacing is such that each of these 'big' moments is emphasised (In contrast to their multiloopers where everything is thrown at you rapid fire)
We've quoted the B&M website, but the second bit about the uniqueness of the trains has been played a bit better on SheiKra, in particular on the Immelmann, where it feels like the train is going to fall off or something when you're right on the edge, twisting tens of meters above the ground.
I think perhaps Sheikra had the nicer looking theme, with the African turrets etc, but the theme didn't really do much other than make it fit in with the park....No strong story.
Out of the two, SheiKra had the better crowd interaction by far. Granted, there wasn't a hole you could gather around, but you could still pretty much stand right underneath the drop and see people facing down. The clincher though is that water splash, sinice it is something genuinely fun for kids etc, and it just looks cool (And again, the high shooting rooster tails add to the 'biggness' of the whole ride), plus it had plenty of other pathway crossovers.
Out of interest, where do we put G5 in this whole situation? It's Oblivion, but without a story or a well presented drop.
alexdude98
Mega Poster
I think in 3 years, there will be one like Th13teen in Germany and one in Universal (Florida, USA).
I think Thirteen style rides could catch on it themed parks like Universal, Europa and so on, with different surprise elements than a horizontal drop. A lot of the marketing and build up to Thirteen was about this secret element so ot reproduce the secrecy and therefore the psychological thrill it would have to be something different because Thirteen has done the drop.
The essence of Thirteen, i.e. a coaster designed to have psychological elements as well as the physical part and a secret/different element can be reproduced in different ways. Thirteen is a crypt with a drop, the next 'psychoaster' could be themed like Oblivion; some kind of experiment and feature a new element. Infact, Oblivion to me is a 'psychoaster'. The theming is designed to scare people before they get on the ride. Especially if you count the location of the drop and the tunnel as a theme device.
The only problem with Thirteen style rides is parks with no theming can't have them. In order for them to work, 'psychoasters' need heavy theming. Having real woodland and the parks history helps Thirteen, something other parks who so this kind of thing won't be able to use, so they will have to try even harder with theming, but because of how different Thirteen is and the scope of 'psychoasters' (a park could go down the Thirteen route and make the ride itself suitable to everyone but with sinister theming, or go all out and make the most intense ride ever, both physically and psychologically), I think they will catch on.
The essence of Thirteen, i.e. a coaster designed to have psychological elements as well as the physical part and a secret/different element can be reproduced in different ways. Thirteen is a crypt with a drop, the next 'psychoaster' could be themed like Oblivion; some kind of experiment and feature a new element. Infact, Oblivion to me is a 'psychoaster'. The theming is designed to scare people before they get on the ride. Especially if you count the location of the drop and the tunnel as a theme device.
The only problem with Thirteen style rides is parks with no theming can't have them. In order for them to work, 'psychoasters' need heavy theming. Having real woodland and the parks history helps Thirteen, something other parks who so this kind of thing won't be able to use, so they will have to try even harder with theming, but because of how different Thirteen is and the scope of 'psychoasters' (a park could go down the Thirteen route and make the ride itself suitable to everyone but with sinister theming, or go all out and make the most intense ride ever, both physically and psychologically), I think they will catch on.