Icarus Intamin Rocket, Completed, Download P1
- Thread starter Blaze
- Start date
Screaming Coasters
Strata Poster
Xpress said:
LMFAO!!! You have friends EVERYWHERE!!
You really are a twat, get a grip.
Jared
Hyper Poster
Xpress said:
How about these for friends? They back up that statement, as do I.
Real,
Hansixx,
Redunzelizer,
xBusterx
Tia,
Riscit
& there are more. All of these people with the exception of Tia have high grade engineering degrees. If you want to argue with them when it comes to realistic wooden track shaping then be my guest, you'll be proved wrong.
Real said:
And on the tools debate.
Real said:
Ingested Banjo
Mega Poster
Blaze -
- that track looks fairly solid colours, the supports are white but the track is one colour. However, I guess that if a park wanted a wacky colour scheme badly, intamin would do it, or they could just paint it themselves...
And I'm almost gonna agree with Xpress here, although I don't use tools at the moment, that's mainly because I've never learnt. It seems like everyone here feels superior using them or not but it's probably more of a preference thing. With or without takes different kinds of skill, so the only real reason to do it without trying tools is in a competition just to test how good your handbuilding skills are. (in my case, baaaad)
For those people who want to say I'm great for not using tools, try this next time round: go find some dead wood and a bit of scrap metal, make it into a pick axe, mine yourself some copper, try to wire it into some kind of computer, write your own programming code, and then use the program to create your new coaster. What I'm saying is, no limits is basically a tool, it isn't hand made by you, nor is the computer. They are all just slightly different levels of convenience, and then when you get tools, that's not really much of a jump from getting a computer with nolimits. If some other person's spent the time making the tool, why not use it?
And I'm almost gonna agree with Xpress here, although I don't use tools at the moment, that's mainly because I've never learnt. It seems like everyone here feels superior using them or not but it's probably more of a preference thing. With or without takes different kinds of skill, so the only real reason to do it without trying tools is in a competition just to test how good your handbuilding skills are. (in my case, baaaad)
For those people who want to say I'm great for not using tools, try this next time round: go find some dead wood and a bit of scrap metal, make it into a pick axe, mine yourself some copper, try to wire it into some kind of computer, write your own programming code, and then use the program to create your new coaster. What I'm saying is, no limits is basically a tool, it isn't hand made by you, nor is the computer. They are all just slightly different levels of convenience, and then when you get tools, that's not really much of a jump from getting a computer with nolimits. If some other person's spent the time making the tool, why not use it?
^The point is there is no real skill in using tools.
Anyone can do the Maths that is involved in them. Producing the programs, maybe not, but using them?! I mean, it's hardly difficult. Tools don't really use your brain, it's not like there is anything that complicated in them is there? OK, you have to be able to apply formulas and visualise how you want the output to look, but that's just the same as handbuilding.
Tools are a shortcut. There is no questioning that. That's all they're really there for. I know you can create some really neat track shapes in them, but why can't you do that by hand? The answer, it's quicker with the tools.
I went through a stage of building my rides with tools. NOT because I enjoyed using them, but because I figured it was better to know how to use all the tools and then make up my mind. I know some people just jump of the tool-slating band wagon with no experience and reasoning behind their choices. I have my reasons, and I can use the tools. I just don't see the point.
And Xpress, learn to take a joke.
Anyone can do the Maths that is involved in them. Producing the programs, maybe not, but using them?! I mean, it's hardly difficult. Tools don't really use your brain, it's not like there is anything that complicated in them is there? OK, you have to be able to apply formulas and visualise how you want the output to look, but that's just the same as handbuilding.
Tools are a shortcut. There is no questioning that. That's all they're really there for. I know you can create some really neat track shapes in them, but why can't you do that by hand? The answer, it's quicker with the tools.
I went through a stage of building my rides with tools. NOT because I enjoyed using them, but because I figured it was better to know how to use all the tools and then make up my mind. I know some people just jump of the tool-slating band wagon with no experience and reasoning behind their choices. I have my reasons, and I can use the tools. I just don't see the point.
And Xpress, learn to take a joke.
Jared
Hyper Poster
Hixee said:
I accept that you have spent the time to learn and at least have a go at using the tools in question, but the fact that others have not does not give them the right to slate them and totally ridicule there use. If someone chooses to use elementary and it's really complicated Force Vector Design formulas then why should their ride automatically be seen as a tool built piece of ****? It should'nt. Tool builders, may in some sense be taking the quick route, but some of the work produced is amazing.
Just because some understands physics and calculus more than others should not mean that they are taking the easy way out just because they're not as good at hand building. If you look at members of other communities, you'll learn that most of them started by mastering the art of hand building, as did I, then they found out about the various tools and aid on offer. They had ago and found them to be more suited to their needs. They may not be the easiest for some to understand, but other like myself get how to use them.
I think the main issue and "hidden agenda" behind this debate is that most people cannot get their heads around how to use these tools. So they automatically decide that rides that are far better because of tools are automatically cheating and thats just not the case.
In my experience it takes a lot more skill and knowledge to create mathematically perfected designs using the FVDs than it does hand building. Not only do you have to be able to visualise the look of the element, but you have to work out the estimated G-Forces through that element. It's not an easy task. Believe me. I've spent years studying how the formulas work and what they do, Why I did this is not up for discussion as I don't want to be slated even more than i already am as a tool builder.
I am not a full tool builder, I use hand building just as much, as does Xpress and the others. Just because we are skilled in two different forms of building does not make us outsiders or wierdos.
bob_3_
Giga Poster
A ride should be judged more on the ideas than the execution.
If i could use tools well i would. To get a good layout and good ideas is hard.
Tools isn't "brainless". Don't attack people for their choice in how they build. They can limit what you end up with, so if someone does a creative layout using tools I completely applaud them, and some things are near impossible to do correctly by hand.
Some of my least favourite..and favourite rides are actually tool built. I think it's completely irrelevent and you should NOT DOWN-RATE A RIDE PURELY BECAUSE THE CREATOR USED TOOLS TO BUILD IT, you should downrate a ride if it is unimaginative, boring tripe.
I've been using NL for 7 years and I'm SICK TO THE TEETH of this stupid arguement. I feel bad for the good tool builders who build fantastic rides, only to have people ignore all their hours of effort and regard it as "brainless" it's cruel.
NOTE:Although I back up this arguement Xpress, you still need to work on your attitude, you do come across as a abit of a moron. Sort it out.
If i could use tools well i would. To get a good layout and good ideas is hard.
Tools isn't "brainless". Don't attack people for their choice in how they build. They can limit what you end up with, so if someone does a creative layout using tools I completely applaud them, and some things are near impossible to do correctly by hand.
Some of my least favourite..and favourite rides are actually tool built. I think it's completely irrelevent and you should NOT DOWN-RATE A RIDE PURELY BECAUSE THE CREATOR USED TOOLS TO BUILD IT, you should downrate a ride if it is unimaginative, boring tripe.
I've been using NL for 7 years and I'm SICK TO THE TEETH of this stupid arguement. I feel bad for the good tool builders who build fantastic rides, only to have people ignore all their hours of effort and regard it as "brainless" it's cruel.
NOTE:Although I back up this arguement Xpress, you still need to work on your attitude, you do come across as a abit of a moron. Sort it out.
A-Kid
Giga Poster
Tbh, its the end product that really matters, not how you built it...
I purely rate on progretion (sp?) of a layout, how force, air, transitions, inversions are put together and overall fun factor.
I do credit people more if they hand-build, as its only fair for the extra work. But, I wouldn't down rate use of tools.
I purely rate on progretion (sp?) of a layout, how force, air, transitions, inversions are put together and overall fun factor.
I do credit people more if they hand-build, as its only fair for the extra work. But, I wouldn't down rate use of tools.
Gazza
Giga Poster
Yeah, to be honest I see no real compelling argument either way, I mean you work with whatever you find easiest.
People seem too focused on the process used, and not enough on the final product.
To me when I'm riding coasters in NL the only thing that is really important to me is how exciting the ride is, and the ideas and concepts in it.
I know some people design in a way that the track could potentially be lifted from the sim and built in real life without modification, and that's cool since that is where their interest lies.
Others sort of just use it as a way to get their vision across (I sort of fall in the latter category, to be honest i can't even be arsed smoothing or whatever to the nth degree because IMO it doesn't enhance the idea enough compared to the time it takes)
I mean, I study architecture, and you can either hand in drawings done by hand, or done with CAD, but there is no preference for either, because at the end of the day if your design is **** then prettying it up one way or the other isn't going to hide that.
If there was a tool where you just typed in a random number, and then the program spat out a finished coaster then you could quite rightly accuse someone of being mindless and lazy....
But this is not the case.
People still have to go through the process of "I want a loop here, after that it goes over a hill, after that a tight turn, after that a curve that threads through the loop" etc
The creative vision is still there, and that is what it counts, how you go about reaching the finished product, be it by placing nodes, or typing numbers into a program, is irrelevant.
People seem too focused on the process used, and not enough on the final product.
To me when I'm riding coasters in NL the only thing that is really important to me is how exciting the ride is, and the ideas and concepts in it.
I know some people design in a way that the track could potentially be lifted from the sim and built in real life without modification, and that's cool since that is where their interest lies.
Others sort of just use it as a way to get their vision across (I sort of fall in the latter category, to be honest i can't even be arsed smoothing or whatever to the nth degree because IMO it doesn't enhance the idea enough compared to the time it takes)
I mean, I study architecture, and you can either hand in drawings done by hand, or done with CAD, but there is no preference for either, because at the end of the day if your design is **** then prettying it up one way or the other isn't going to hide that.
But isn't that the essence of coaster designing right there? The output?
If there was a tool where you just typed in a random number, and then the program spat out a finished coaster then you could quite rightly accuse someone of being mindless and lazy....
But this is not the case.
People still have to go through the process of "I want a loop here, after that it goes over a hill, after that a tight turn, after that a curve that threads through the loop" etc
The creative vision is still there, and that is what it counts, how you go about reaching the finished product, be it by placing nodes, or typing numbers into a program, is irrelevant.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Huh, I still just add elements randomly, and it sort of work... I don't do any pre-planning more then just that I want a lift/launch and then the first element will be a "...", and then it's just guesswork and luck on the rest of the layout...Gazza said:
But as A-kid wrote...
I can relate to this, a hand built track shows more skills...A-Kid said:
This is how I see it:
And it's all about skill in my eyes, doing a really tricky element/segment by hand is way cooler then letting a program do it for you...Me on TPR said:
Gazza
Giga Poster
Pre planning wasn't really the true sense of what I was getting at,
The gist of it is that you still have to think about what you want the ride to do (And this can occur either before, or you can make it up as you go along)
It's not like a program can decide what the next element will be.
I too do rides where It is just luck in terms of how the layout turns out....But say you finish one bit, and are thinking about what to do next, and you decided to add a helix, you could either go and build the helix by hand, or you could go use a program to make the helix. But once you have done this the net result is still the same, the ride has a helix, and it was your creative spark that put it there.
I guess then it comes down to what people consider important as a factor in judging a ride.
I personally don't consider the hours of effort put in, only the fun of the finished ride. 'Effort' seems like something separate.
When you are riding a coaster in real life, you only care about how fun the ride was and whether you liked what it did.
But it never crosses your mind how long the designers in Switzerland or wherever spent on it, or what particular CAD suite they drafted it with, and whether said CAD suites had plugins that aid their design process.
PS, it is worth pointing out that I don't use tools....or put particular effort into hand smoothing for that matter :lol:
A
Anonymous
Guest
Sorry but those are just my views on building technique, if you don't like them just ignore them...CCJared said:
But then again, then there is people that see it the other way around, if it's not tooled then it's rubbish, end of... (CS people that is).
Why don't you bash them??
BTW, you sig is way too big... not to mention on TPR where it's enormous, check the Rules for more info...