Variation

[SaiyanHajime]

Coasters vary from ride to ride. Some more than others.

Group psychology is often blamed for effecting how a group of people feel about a ride on trips, and I'd say it probably does have a large impact. But I didn't realise until recently just how much impact rides physically varying themselves have...

So, CoasterForce do a little trip to Lake Compounce and everyone is underwhelmed by Boulder Dash. I and a few others visit 3 days later and we have the same verdict. Apparently it was raining when they went, but it was nice and sunny the day we went. So it's NOT the weather. We didn't have any communication with the other group. This is a really, really renowned coaster, and it's not we all thought it was awesome but not AS awesome as people said, most of us thought it was pretty lame.

Similar thing with Nitro... That's not that well praised and I certainly thought it was lame as hell when I rode it 2 years ago, but this time it was AMAZING! And the other group, who went 3 days later, all said they loved it too.

I think it's safe to say that these rides are just running differently to how they usually do, because the similarities in opinion were uncanny.

What do you think? Coincidences, or are the rides really capable of changing THAT much?

It's worth noting that the weather when I last rode Nitro to now was pretty much the same, both post storm. It had been raining. What, then, is causing the difference? Is it different train? New wheels? What? Has anyone who lives local to SF GAdv noticed it running well recently?

With coasters we know well, we're very aware of the variation. Colossus is one where the chance after rain turns an appalling ride into one thats good. I also think Saw is really temperamental, varying unreliably hour to hour. I've never noticed such a wide variation on a B&M though, until Nitro.

 

[Mike]

When I went to SFGAdv. with TPR in 2008, we had morning ERT on El Toro and many people in the group were saying that's the worst they've ever had on El Toro, yet a couple of days later when everyone went back, they were saying it's the best they've ever had it...

Rides can change not only on a daily basis, but on an hourly basis, and can even vary as much as what seat you're in and what train you're on. I don't think it's coincidence, it's just that rides really are that variable.

 

[furie]

Coasters vary from ride to ride. Some more than others.

Group psychology is often blamed for effecting how a group of people feel about a ride on trips, and I'd say it probably does have a large impact. But I didn't realise until recently just how much impact rides physically varying themselves have...

I think it depends on the strength of personalities to be honest, and how it's all brought across. It's a difficult one, but if everyone is hyped up and getting each other excited, then one of two things is likely to happen. If a strong personality comes of and goes "see, it lived up to all the expectations easily, that pop of air over the second hill, and then the superb speed bank in turn 4, and OMG the double dip airtime is sublime", then people who were disappointed may say "well, it wasn't as good as I expected, but I guess I over hyped it in my mind and I'm dissing it too much and yes, actually, it's a brilliant coaster because this person is pointing out to me the fact that I missed out on all of this because I'm a rubbish coaster enthusiast compared to them".

If there isn't a strong personality, then the group will be negative (it's rare anything over-hyped will live up to expectations), except maybe one or two people really enjoy it and then feel that they shouldn't - I think the people in extremes come out later.

However, I don't think it holds true very often at all, I think people actually tend to have very strong minds. Group mentality can swing a mood and affect the ride a little, but at the end of the day, if you're hanging by your nuts on Bizarro with the world dropping away from you, you know it's a "good" coaster.

The problem is (and I think I've been saying this for a long time), coasters can change, but people are also different. Yes, we know people are different, but sometimes it's such a strange difference we actually can't accept it. You come off a ride next to somebody (literally six inches apart) and they've had the ride of their life and you've been bored (we had this on Balder). How can you get such a massive difference in opinion? It's simply button pressing. We see it on here all the time "favourite element" has people all over the shop. Some like high g, some floater, some ejector, some laterals, some controlled, some wild, some drops, some loops. A coaster has to press all your buttons just right to make it work for you... and sometimes your buttons will be harder to press than others.

Back to the point though and absolutely Joey, the difference in a coaster ride can change massively even on a short amount of time. Expedition GE Force went from "maybe a top ten coaster" to "maybe my number 1" in the space of an hour's break. I hadn't changed (if anything I was more exhausted), but the coaster absolutely had. The sun had come out and it had warmed up and BAM! It really was like riding a different coaster.

The thing is, even not running well I could see it was potentially a number 1 coaster, it just "wasn't doing it right". It's down to experience I think, you kind of get an idea of how things could run.

Wodan is a good example of this. I had watched the POVs before going on the coaster and you could see little pops of airtime. So my first ride (on the back), I was expecting airtime, but it was completely flat. I could see that the front though was taking the hills at speed and then slowing the train down at the back, with never enough "drop" off each hill to whip the rear of the train over, then train didn't start to accelerate until the back was over the crest. Hence the lack of airtime there.

So we rode the front, and I was right, it made the coaster mediocre rather than poor - the airtime pops (as I'd spotted in the POV) were suddenly present. I guess there may be some circumstances where it runs faster and that front row ride is actually "good".

The one that confounds me though is Phoenix. I had a bad run on that, but I couldn't even see where there could possibly be anything good about the ride. It was just so slow that there's no way you could ever get any air out of those shallow hills. You just looked at it and thought "it's just a simple ride with nothing too it, the hills aren't highly curved enough, the ride isn't tall enough, no big drops, no surprises - just a flat, dull ride". It's impossible to imagine anything else, but I know everyone raves about it, so when it runs well, it must run at such a massively increased pace it's beyond experience/imagination.

Going back to EGF, you could just tell the ride was great by looking at it, and even running badly it delivered a "slice of greatness". I'm so glad I got that "real" ride because it really was superb. It's just that with rides like Phoenix, you just can't even see where the greatness may be hidden.

It's so annoying though because you want everyone to experience things at their best. I want to experience Phoenix at its best, and I want everyone else to understand why I consider Boulder Dash so mind blowing - getting that "real" ride as I managed on EGF.

 

[tomahawk]

I think rides definitely vary, in extreme circumstances. When the live went through Worlds of Fun a few years ago and we rode Timberwolf, I had literally never had an enjoyable, let alone BEARABLE ride on it, yet that day, it ran the best I had ever experienced, and I know it will never be that good again. I had ridden it the day before as well, and I rode it a week after, and the weather was virtually the same all 3 times, hot and humid as ****. I know it wasn't influenced by the group, as I rode with ECG and when we hit the breaks I mentioned that it was the best it had ever ridden.

When I go to parks, I don't have any enthusiast friends who are close enough to go with me, so when I go, I either go by myself, or with non enthusiast friends. My opinion typically treads opposite of the group. My cousin, who is the most enthusiast person I go with, loved Green Lantern, yet my fiance and her boyfriend would never go near it. Then we rode Apocalypse a different time with about 10 of us there. I found it to be absolute garbage, yet they all absolutely loved it. I couldn't understand why, but they all started saying you are too much of a critic and trying to compare it to anything and everything, when in fact I was comparing it to Prowler, since people said that Terminator was better. So the next time I rode it, I didn't try to compare, and I still think it's ****. Granted I rode about a month ago and I went four times in a row without getting off, and the third time was by far the best, giving the air I had never gotten before. I didn't even move seats, so the ride changed just from cycle to cycle.

So yeah, rides vary every time you ride them, at least I think they do. Give me X2 during the day, and it is mid top ten, at night, it's top three.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

In response to Phil... I definitely get the "I can see that in the right conditions this is probably a very good ride" thing with Boulder Dash. There was not an ounce of airtime when we road at the back, and I suspected maybe the front is where it's at. After trying it was better, but my best ride was my last ride... In the middle of the train. It got me thinking... MOST enthusiasts get to ride it at night after it's been running all day because of the high gate price, small size of the park and the deal they do for cheap evening tickets. So I kind of "got" that the ride is likely superior in the last few hours of operation.

Unfortunately, because Lake Compounce sucks, the park was only open until 4 the day of our visit. We had planned to do it and Quassy in one day. In my defence, when I planned the trip neither parks had their calendars up yet (this was like in March I think), but because the rest of the parks we were doing were all open as normal, I thought nothing of it.

See, this is the thing as well, we had a BAD day at that park. And that definitely makes a difference. They'd already pissed me off by not responding to emails or twitter and giving conflicting information over the phone. I go, assuming, that they cannot seriously be charging their extortionate gate price considering the park closes at 4... But they were. And the park was full of middle school kids. And it was hot, but the weather report told us otherwise, so we were all in jeans. AND the park has NOTHING TO DO OMG, why is there NOTHING there? Their best attraction, without a doubt, is the cable cars. I do not understand their gate price. What the actual ****. The free soda gimmick is not worth it.

So yeah, that probably all effected my opinion of Boulder Dash a little... But since the others went without all the crap we had and still were meh, I'm a little skeptical.


Phoenix is a weird one, no doubt about it. Last time we road in 2010, the airtime was present in extreme mode. It was one of those that was too much for me, actually. A couple of the woodies we did on that trip were, such as Rebel Yell at Kings Dominon and GASM at SFoG. I just felt like the rise and slam was... unpleasant? It was certainly incredible, but not nice. That was the trip I hated Nitro for the rumbling vibrations which made my chest hurt, so maybe it was just me, because Dillon and Kyle thought I was being a picky little bitch.

This year though, Phoenix didn't have anywhere NEAR the airtime I remembered. It was still mental at throwing me out of my seat, but ONLY in the front. Before I recall it being crazy no matter where we sat, and unbearable in the front.

And I'm going to take this moment to ask WHY DOES EVERYONE ALWAYS ASSUME THE BACK IS BEST?

You get ejector air in the front almost exclusively, I find. Because you get thrown upward. Floater you get in the back, as you get pulled down. It's common sense! And you can feel it on the majority of rides, but for some reason people still race for the back seats... I don't get it! Back seats if the coaster is about positive g, front if it's about negative g. Unless it's a B&M hyper, then you do want the back, because there is no ejector to be had ever on those. People convince themselves the back is where it's at, but if you just relaxed and felt the forces people would realise that's just plain wrong. This deserves a whole 'nother topic...


With regard to night rides... Beast, holy hell. How in the world does it go from being LOL this is terrible to OMG THIS IS AAMMMMAAAAZING! Pmbo is one of those which gets incredible at night, as is Lightning Racer, but that's fab ALL the time anyway. <3

Oh and Phil, everyone seemed to love Lightning Racer! And I noticed something this time... It's a lot like Thunderhead at Dollywood, except Thunderhead is critically good as well as fun as ****. I think you'd absolutely love it.

 

[Hyde]

Each and every ride on any coaster is always unique, as roller coasters (and their rides) are susceptible to a wide range of factors.

• train number
• seat number
• restraint tightness
• temperature
• humidity
• wheel health (they wear down too!)
• train weight
• speed (especially for launched rides)
• personal health
• personal nourishment (you're probably going to black out if you only ate a McChicken 7 hours ago!)

The list goes on and on, and these are just physical factors. There is of course the psychologic factor of group mentality. What the group thinks, chances are you will think as well. Just look at how skewed Mitch Hawkers poll can be for proof.

For instance, Ravine Flyer II is my highest rated roller coaster. The day I was riding, I was with my best friend, and we were having a blast at Waldameer, despite the torrential down pour that was occurring. We simply bought rain ponchos, and started riding, literally using the ponchos as a shield against rain on RF II. It is indeed a great ride, but the experience we were having was out of this world hilarious, making it the best coaster experience for myself.

Similarly with X2, I have heard my friends scream "My Siberian Taint!" in the middle of the ride, adding a certain new level of context and enjoyment to the ride. :razz:

 

[caffeine_demon]

The thing with boulder dash is - when I first heard people saying how good it is, I looked at several POVS on youtube - and tbh, I never did understand what made it so good, and I still wasn't sure after the 2nd and 3rd rides. (although the 2nd and 3rd and so on were much better than the first).

I think I may have got EGF on a bad day too - or maybe it was just the general mood of the rest of the group that brought it down a bit?

Now, if we take bizarro(SFNE), Collossos (heide) and piraten, from the first ride on each of them (and Colossos was practically first of the evening from "cold", once it had been fixed, and piraten during morning ERT) - it was immediately obvious that they were all exceptional coasters

Another ride which I felt was a disappointment was dragon khan - maybe it was the hype that did it, maybe it was being restricted to the "big boy" seats on that visit - either way, it just totally lacked that spark which I feel every time on Nemesis, and even Batman the ride, and even Nemesis inferno! I can't say whether I'd feel differently if I'd been riding Khan on an almost yearly basis for about 15 years, before getting my first go on Nemesis...

As to Balder - I think it's a great fun ride, but don't know if I'd rate it higher than nash..

 

[Ben]

. This is a really, really renowned coaster, and it's not we all thought it was awesome but not AS awesome as people said, most of us thought it was pretty lame.

Pretty lame...?

PRETTY LAME?!?!

**** you. I can't even... **** you.

Our friendship is over.

There best be variation, or your **** insane.

Edit: So upset I'm even getting my your/you're mixed up <////3

 

[SaiyanHajime]

. This is a really, really renowned coaster, and it's not we all thought it was awesome but not AS awesome as people said, most of us thought it was pretty lame.

Pretty lame...?

PRETTY LAME?!?!

**** you. I can't even... **** you.

Our friendship is over.

There best be variation, or your **** insane.

Edit: So upset I'm even getting my your/you're mixed up <////3

</3 I'm so sorry.

Worst part is that I was convinced I was going to love it. I was thinking, it'll be everything I love about Beast... AND a great coaster. But... it just didn't do anything? It was fast, but there was seriously NO airtime. None. At all.

 

[Jake]

To be honest, I think a huge part of it is down to expectations.

I don't care if someone says 'OH, I NEVER LET OTHER PEOPLE INFLUENCE ME', because that's bollocks. You can block it out to a certain extent, but if a ride is hyped, it will always be at the back of your mind.

Quite a significant number of enthusiasts did Boulder Dash in 2008 for the first time (not just on the TPR trip, but some other CFers too). As far as I'm aware, it wasn't hailed as an AMAZING coaster before 2008, and was quite under the radar in the grand scheme of things. Thus, loads of people went with fairly average expectations, and found an awesome coaster. This gets translated into the best coaster in the whole entire world, which is reinforced to you lot for 4 years, then when you finally get to ride 'the best coaster ever' you're met with a coaster which is still fab, but will never live up to the hype that you were exposed to for years. To be honest, it never stood a chance.

Oh, and anyone who had previously ridden it and praised it beforehand, and then said 'it wasn't running as well' is probably just embarrased to admit that the coaster has always been that way. If you have to ride a coaster in a certain seat, in certain weather etc for it to be a good coaster... then it's not a good coaster.

BTW, I'm not saying I don't like BD... I thought it was amazing, but am willing to admit that the ERT/Group morale and the fact that I hadn't heard much about the ride beforehand were probably to blame for me thinking it was so good.

 

[furie]

Nah, I disagree Jake.

Having seen the difference an hour could make to Expedition GE Force, or even a change of trains within minutes on the Nash, coasters can just vary massively. Also Phoenix too is the clincher for me.

When I rode BD and Phoenix in 2009, both had been hyped up as brilliant, but BD lived up to the claim and Phoenix was completely dead. Like, it just had absolutely nothing at all, no speed, no air, it was like a train ride.

Rides really can change a ridiculous amount. Even Balder which I thought was generally "alright" gave me one absolutely unrelenting, brilliant ride in the middle of the train - completely out of the blue. Just one ride out of 40 or 50. It's so odd, but I don't think mental attitude has too much to do with it.

 

[LiveForTheLaunch]

I really do believe that Boulder Dash was running poorly the day we rode it though, because many people attested to it, not just one. I do, however, think that at the end of the day it may have almost been how people say it usually is, but then again I can't really know for certain because I haven't been on it on a "good" day. Even so, for almost being at "normal" running quality by the end of the day, it still wasn't outstanding. Okay, so it made my top ten somewhere simply because I love coasters like Beast that meander around the forest and you can't see where the track is going next, but as far as airtime is concerned, there wasn't much at all, which was very disappointing. It definitely gives a good out of control feel, but if I want a coaster that gives you the same feeling, but with high levels of airtime, I'll take Voyage any day of the week!

I do know that coasters can vary a huge amount though. It's obvious because of all the technical factors involved, but I do think that the opinion of an entire group as well as the ride experience (like, who you're riding with, particularly funny moments, etc) can also impact a rider's perception of quality and influence their opinion of the ride.

Rides that stand out to me as having the most variation are:

- Diamondback (over the course of a season)
- Leviathan (over the course of a month and even a day)
- Shivering Timbers (over the course of a few seasons, went from amazing to very poor)
- Maverick (has always been very consistent, but last time I rode it, it was pretty bad)

Wooden coasters seem more notorious as a whole for variation, obviously.

 

[ECG]

Wooden coasters vary a lot - period!
El Toro is always better in the afternoon/evening/night, than in the morning. The hotter it is & the longer it's been running, the better the ride.
I've ridden Phoenix dozens of times (as in on dozens of different days) & it's never run as bad as it did the day furie rode it. Of course riding once in the back row didn't help, because (as Joey attests) the front is insane. Never have I wanted so badly to re-ride a coaster, but furie plainly refused to get back on.
I've also never seen Boulder Dash running as poorly as it did during the Live add-on. Sure it got better as the evening wore on, but even the best ride that day was the worst I've ever experienced.
The variation is due to the weather over here, as it was explained to us during our Flying Turns walk-through. We have far greater temperature extremes in the USA than you lot in the UK. Over here everything is constantly expanding & contracting, whereas in the UK the track, wheels, etc. don't do either due to less varying temperature swings. So over here the coasters run better in the heat due to the wheels expanding & causing less fricion, whereas in the UK it's the rain that causes less friction for the wheels.
The one that has me stumped is the variation on Nitro Joey mentioned. I've literally ridden Nitro hundreds of times throughout the years & it's always been pretty much the same (other than being smoother when wheels have been replaced). So unless that's what he experienced, I have no explanation.
I also rode GeForce a dozens times throughout the day I visited the park, but experienced no distinguishable differences.

 

[furie]

I think with GEForce it was simply the sun coming out and drying the track/heating things up. It had been miserable early, getting worse as the day went on. Then we had the hour's break and the sun came out and the park warmed up. So again, it must be a temperature thing.