Student Riots (and this kind of demonstration...)

[furie]

So, if you're in the UK, you'll have seen how the student demonstration against increased fees, etc. turned into a "violent riot".

Do you agree with these kinds of marches and demonstrations? Do you think they actually achieve anything? Do you think they need to become violent to actually get notices? Are we returning to the 80's???

I know we have a good mix of students and workers here, so there's scope for a decent discussion I think?

 

[Hixee]

Honestly? I don't know.

I think they can be effective, but I often question whether the 'institution' that is being targeted even needs the demonstration to know they're in the 'wrong'.

To be, demonstrations are a group's way of saying "look, there's loads of us here that have put the effort into this demonstration, we don't agree, pay attention to us". I'm at risk of contradicting myself here, so I'm going to move on.

I think violent demonstrations aren't necessity, but I can see why they come about. I think it's a difficult situation to be in, regardless of which 'side' you're on. Now I can't really comment on the 80s, as my knowledge of those riots is pretty poor, but I don't feel like there are any more or less riots now than there were 5-10 years ago, I think they're just about things which affect me more now.

The fees thing is a farce and a piss-take. I don't agree one bit. Does that mean I'll sign petitions? Probably. Will I go to riot? Maybe.

 

[Nic]

I support people's right to peaceful protest (although I'm not convinced how much difference they make). I don't condone it turning to violence and criminal damage though. Particularly in this case, I think its really undermined their argument. I think there would've been a lot of people out there who previously had sympathy for the cause, who are now dead against it because of the actions of a few daft people.

 

[Ian]

Has any protest demo ever worked? For the ones that I remember - the oil refinery blockades, Stop The War and the G20 - didn't do anything.

No government will listen to protesters, there is no democracy in that respect.

Students need to realise that it's not a right to go to university, it's a privilege. If you're not willing to pay £9k (which I do think is a tad excessive) a year to better yourself, then you don't deserve to go to uni. I know it's a typical thingto say, but there are far too many crappy degrees about. Perhaps by making the fees highers, it will make people think twice about the type of degree they are doing.

One thing I've noticed is it's always the left wing liberals who take to the streets and cause violence when they disagree with the State. I wish people would help themselves more than rely on handouts.

 

[furie]

Do the demos work in a much more subtle way though Ian?

Do they give the people in charge a better feeling of the irritation/anger of the nation? Does it then help to soften policy in the future? While I doubt it ever makes any serious policy change, it may well stop some in the future from being followed through so vigorously. Will, for instance, any government be so willing to quickly dismiss low pay rises for firemen in the future? Did those strikes not really help at the time, but show there is a force there that needs to be treated more gently?

Likewise, the student demonstrations here... It's similar to demonstrations that happened when I was becoming/just starting my student life. Again, anti-Conservative (students seem to forget that labour did just as much, if not more damage to students afterwards) but it affects the way ex-students like me view the Conservative government. Fortunately, I don't just look at things in a narrow tunnel, but for many people, I'll bet that the change to labour and what kept them in and so supported, was primarily down to now graduates being anti-conservative.

How much negative opinion is brought out by these? I just don't know. Will more students now feel less alone and be more firm in their anti-Conservative opinions than prior to the "riots"?

Actually, I think it's probably forgotten by most to be honest :lol:

I also agree about the loans thing. I think that uni, even when I started (actually, I was probably on the first wave of the "uni is a right" front - brought about by the conservatives funnily enough as they merged the universities and polytechnics) was full of people there simply because they didn't have any other plan. Most didn't have a career planned out for them, or any idea of what they wanted from the future. They were simply there because they got decent grades at college and it was expected of them to go on. It didn't cost and the student world was their oyster. Why not go and get a degree in History and Geography because "I want to do something in media"?

This doesn't mean I think some degrees are worth less than others. Simply that if people actually were forced to think about it, and know that they would incur debts, they may think a little harder, rather than being rushed along into it without a clue.

Food for thought and discussion

 

[Snoo]

Demonstrations can do something.. look at what Martin Luther King and women did for the USA.. ect ect.

But.. that was for rights.. this is for business.. so it won't do a damn thing.

Welcome to the American education system boys!

 

[spicy]

The thing is there are demonstrations and then there is rioting for the sake of it and just smashing everything up.

I think a well thought out demonstration is more effective than just smashing everything up like yesterday because instead of actually focusing on the issue at hand, which was student fees, now the only issue that has been discussed is the violent behaviour and "did the police cope?".

In this video David Cameron doesn't mention student fees once, just violence and police.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ2W0zVgavc


However would it have even made the news if 2,000 students peacefully protested against the increase in student fees? I don't know, it certainly wouldn't have recieved the coverage which it had today. But hardly any news reports, actually mentioned anything about what the demonstrations were about so its kind of a double edged sword in that respect.

Personally I wouldn't bother protesting as I don't think it really ever achieves that much. Being a student myself I can obviously see that this increase in fees is diabolical and part of the increase is to ease the fees for foreign students which angers me but not to the point of protesting, thats just me though.

 

[STC]

Students need to realise that it's not a right to go to university, it's a privilege.

I absolutely disagree. Education is a right, not a privilege. Everyone in this country should have the right to free education as high as they want to go. Education is the most important thing we have, learning and the acquisition of knowledge are fundamental human experiences and should not be limited to those who can pay.

I was at Millbank yesterday. What happened was a beautiful temporary transfer of power from the few to the many. The damage done to a few windows is minuscule compared to the damage the evil Tory party want to inflict on our public services and people, which will almost certainly result in increased poverty, death and depression.

 

[nadroJ]

Students need to realise that it's not a right to go to university, it's a privilege. If you're not willing to pay £9k (which I do think is a tad excessive) a year to better yourself, then you don't deserve to go to uni.

I think that's a bit much? In the world we live in I like to think there's a bit of an 'American Dream' ideology, in that we have the opportunity to cross class boundaries. Making University tuition fees this ridiculously high ensures that the lower classes can't go to University simply because they can't afford it. This disregards everything I like to think the UK stands for, and also ignores peoples intelligence and academic ability as reason enough to get into University.

I agree there are crappy degrees out there, I only have to look at Solent to know that. I also look around at my fellow Film students to know that half of them shouldn't be there because they are lazy so and so's who won't put the work in. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be given the chance by excluding them because of their families income.

 

[furie]

Why does it stop lower classes? It's a loan that is paid back when you can afford it later.

I grew up working class and my folks never had any money. They couldn't afford for my university degree and it cost me around £15,000 in total by the time I left.

I've paid all that back now because I have a decent wage, all due to me getting a degree. I worked from the bottom up though, and it was six years before I paid back a penny.

Being encumbered with debt didn't stop me from reaching to get the education I was working toward.

Madame_Furie still has over £10,000 worth of debt (Labour era BTW, those ****ers ). She'll never pay it back because she has me to support her and will only ever need to earn money under the threshold.

Likewise, Madame_Furie comes from a distinct working class background.

It's nothing to do with classes, but rather with people panicking that maybe their future isn't quite as well thought out and considered as it could be.

I had £15 a week in my final year after rent. I've worked hard to pay off debt incurred (and I'm still in debt TBH). It was all worth it though because I'm doing the job I wanted when I started my degree. I'm earning my potential and can (just about) support a family where my wife doesn't have to work.

Did it annoy me on the breadline while house mates smoked and ate takeaways with the "£100 top up this month" off their parents (on top of what the government said they should supplement on the grant)? Yes, but it was still worth ever second.

If you want an education, you can get one. You don't even need the money up front. The argument just doesn't stand up for me.

 

[Ian]

Students need to realise that it's not a right to go to university, it's a privilege.

I absolutely disagree. Education is a right, not a privilege.

The state supplies all children with a free education to the age of 16. After 16, the person becomes an adult and therefore can make their own choice: work or further education. If somebody decides to opt for further education, then, as an adult, the government can't be expected to pick up the tab.

A degree will open up doors that straight-into-employment won't (in most cases). If somebody wants to better themselves, then they have to be prepared to pay. It's like wanting to replace a Cavalier with a BMW. If you want that, you work harder and take on extra jobs so you get it.

It's not about "people from poorer backgrounds" won't get in, that's bollocks. If somebody is determined, then they'll make it happen. One of my mates from school was brought up in a tacky council estate area in Eastleigh. He didn't want to stay there all his life, so he knuckled down at college, went to uni and is now an orthodontist raking in thousands of £££'s a month.

He had no "right" to go to university, he got there on his own merit, worked hard and got himself a decent job out of it. Although his total student debt was "only" £18k and he didn't pay a penny back until he was earning!

We blatantly have different viewpoints on this subject, I doubt whatever I say will convince you or vice-versa.

 

[Dave]

I agreed with the march and the themes they were protesting about. But I get instantly dis-interested when I hear people start smashing up property, especially a government buildings (as imagine if its tax paid?), it's the same with the G20 protest. As then innocent people can get caught in the cross-fire, as the police have to treat a rioting crowd as one, not as individuals.

Here's an interesting thing I found out about the G20 summit, if you graffiti a building you can't get done for vandalism if you use chalk.

 

[Smithy]

So whilst everyone is being constantly drilled with the garbage that we must "slash the deficit to get this country out of debt", as students we're then expected to accept that it's ok to rack up 40k of debt?

The rate as it is now is excessive. Do I feel as if I'm getting value for money? Do I bollocks.

So tripling the fee's, and yet offering a lower quality? It wouldn't work for any single business trading today, so why should it be accepted from a university. I'd love for a full breakdown of what my fee's pay for, because more often than not I attend a lecture only to be read off slides several years out of date, and then told to "do my own research" on the matter.

I do agree, going to university is not a right; If you're thick, you shouldn't go, if you're lazy, you shouldn't go.

However, everyone should be allowed the opportunity. That works both ways. If you put the effort in, you should be granted equal opportunities to enter. Which very well may be the case as I'm unsure what the scum will do to the grants they hand out.

 

[kimahri]

To be honest, from what I saw the recent protest, the kids were just being violent for the sake of of it.

Meh, just send them off to an island, give them a random object/weapon and let them battle it out like that movie with the school kids... and televise it.

 

[Thekingin64]

So whilst everyone is being constantly drilled with the garbage that we must "slash the deficit to get this country out of debt", as students we're then expected to accept that it's ok to rack up 40k of debt?

The rate as it is now is excessive. Do I feel as if I'm getting value for money? Do I bollocks.

So tripling the fee's, and yet offering a lower quality? It wouldn't work for any single business trading today, so why should it be accepted from a university. I'd love for a full breakdown of what my fee's pay for, because more often than not I attend a lecture only to be read off slides several years out of date, and then told to "do my own research" on the matter.

I do agree, going to university is not a right; If you're thick, you shouldn't go, if you're lazy, you shouldn't go.

However, everyone should be allowed the opportunity. That works both ways. If you put the effort in, you should be granted equal opportunities to enter. Which very well may be the case as I'm unsure what the scum will do to the grants they hand out.

I agree here, and not only have students got to pay the tuition fees, They've got to pay to stay alive(food, drink, taxes, petrol etc.) so keep the tuition fees the same if you don't want people in debt their whole life!!

Also the fourth paragraph makes me wonder why my brother's at uni :--D :--D

 

[jokerman]

So whilst everyone is being constantly drilled with the garbage that we must "slash the deficit to get this country out of debt", as students we're then expected to accept that it's ok to rack up 40k of debt?

I doubt anyone will be racking up that much debt. Unless you're incredibly stupid with your money...

And this is slashing the defecit, that's the point of it.

However, everyone should be allowed the opportunity. That works both ways. If you put the effort in, you should be granted equal opportunities to enter. Which very well may be the case as I'm unsure what the scum will do to the grants they hand out.

Everyone is given the opportunity, as has been mentioned you don't have to start paying for university until you're earning a minimum amount.

I can't comment on your other points, since I don't know where or what you're studying.

The state supplies all children with a free education to the age of 16. After 16, the person becomes an adult and therefore can make their own choice: work or further education. If somebody decides to opt for further education, then, as an adult, the government can't be expected to pick up the tab.

Not only do you get free education up to 16, you can have a further 2 years for free normally, if you want.

I think people have the right to protest, but I really don't think it makes any difference to be perfectly honest.

 

[furie]

So whilst everyone is being constantly drilled with the garbage that we must "slash the deficit to get this country out of debt", as students we're then expected to accept that it's ok to rack up 40k of debt?

The rate as it is now is excessive. Do I feel as if I'm getting value for money? Do I bollocks.

I pay (including petrol tax ) over 10k a year to the government in taxes. Do I feel like I'm getting value for money? Absolutely not. Do I feel that students deserve some of that to hire coaches to bugger off for a day trip to London to break things? Not at all.

If you actually had to work hard and invest in your future, you may spend more time working to get a decent education, rather than swanning off away from lectures to be political...

 

[Nicky]

I get 9 hours a week for my tutition fees, this is compared with some of my friends who have 25+ a week. Maybe some sort of sliding scale might be more appropriate? Do I think the amount of money I pay is equivalent to what I get? No.

Onto the protest. I agree with the peaceful side of it even if most of the students there probably did skive lectures to be there. The price of living is going up to the point where if I live in college next year my loan and grant just about pays my bill. I know friends who are stuck in their overdraft already because their parents' can't lend them any money yet the government thinks they don't need it.

The amount of debt that I am going to come out with is bad enough but the thought of charging three times as much each year? The debt is just going to increase more and more. It's a great start for a life where you still have to consider buying a house and a car and that's only after finding a job when the market is tough to find one.

 

[SaiyanHajime]

These things raise awareness that people give a ****. Thats why they are important.

I dunno how I feel about fees going up myself. If they had been that high before I started uni, I'd not have gone to uni. The good thing about them going up is it will put people like me off going. People who didn't need to go to uni, people studying subjects which have no worth as a degree. Why's this good? I hope it'll change the public perception, force people to realise that uni is worthless in their area of interest and change the entire system.

The issue with university's worth, as with all education, is too much emphasise on final grade and not enough on what people actually know and learn. Ironically this is the exact opposite in art, where a grade means nothing, but my point is that uni is about paying for a grade, not the time and quality of the education you receive there or the learning experience you receive. These things do NOT correlate to grades.

Of course, for those studying real subjects - work hard and you'll pay that loan off easily.

Where's the issue?

 

[nadroJ]

So, just to ask, what do people consider 'real' subjects?