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Cedar Point | Top Thrill 2 | Triple Launch Renovation | 2024

Dar

Hyper Poster
Intrasys advertise their drives as being capable of top speeds just shy of TTD's old top speed, 180km/h vs 193km/h, alongside much higher accelerations of up to 100m/s vs TTD's 13(?)m/s. So a straight swap, with maybe a bit of an extension to the launch section proper, to LSMs could be feasible. To be fair, they don't really mention distances required, but they wouldn't advertise top speeds that have prohibitive space requirements for the launches.

They do mention a drive force of 200kN, could the trains be the focus of the overhaul? Reducing the weight as much as possible to squeeze as much out of the drives as possible?

https://intrasys-gmbh.com/english/linear-drive-engineering/the-slim-drive-system/
 

Trax

Mega Poster
alongside much higher accelerations of up to 100m/s vs TTD's 13(?)m/s.
No current LSM is capable of 100m/s2. That would be over 10g, which would be more then double of Dododonpas launch.
But you did read that right, they did indeed claim that. Maybe it’s a peak for a fraction of a second. It won’t be sustained acceleration for sure.
Anyway, with some tinkering Intrasys could work, but I really think that it would require 2 rows of stators. Luckily, they also advertise the possibility, but until now, no park has made use of it.
 

Hixee

Flojector
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No current LSM is capable of 100m/s2.
Can you expand on this? Are you saying that nobody produces 'coaster-scale' LSMs capable of that, or that its downright impossible at any scale. I don't buy the latter... ;)
 

Trax

Mega Poster
Can you expand on this? Are you saying that nobody produces 'coaster-scale' LSMs capable of that, or that its downright impossible at any scale. I don't buy the latter... ;)
Please note that I am just talking about current technology. If we are able to build stable superconducters at operating temperatures of a rollercoaster one day, the theoretical acceleration is unlimited, as long as you can provide the electricity.

With current technology, it is in theory possible to reach 100m/s², but as far as I know really only in theory.
A LSM module is basically nothing else than an rolled out electric motor. Both themself don't provide a fixed acceleration, but a force which in turn can accelerate an object. In case of a rollercoaster, the magnetic field interacts with the magnets under the train, resulting in a force towards a certain direction. This force will then accelerate the train in this direction. Through switching the polarities of the LSM modules, you ensure that the force keeps pulling and pushing the train forward, instead of fixing it to a certain position.
Anyway, the force itself does not equal a certain acceleration, unless you take the weight of the train into account. Whilst the train will always move when a force is applied to it, the acceleration is depending on its weight. The lighter the train for a given force, the higher the acceleration.
In addition, applying more power to the modules will increase the strengths of their magnetic field and therefore the thrust produced. This results in higher heat production, and may lead to overheating.
But yes, in theory a very light object could be accelerated with 10g and beyond using LSM motors. Halving the weight of an object will actually result in more then a doubling of the theoretical acceleration, as you don't have to run the motors as long and therefore allowing for a higher current.

If you would lenghten the train, you can apply more force to it as the LSMs are running more efficient, but you also increase the weight. In the end, a longer train will always result in lower acceleration than a shorter one, as each module has to be active for a longer period of time, reducing the energy per traincar.

Of course you could simply add more magnets. This can be done until the space underneath a car is completely used by magnets, but it dies not give a linear increase in acceleration. Doubling the magnets (and therefore LSM modules) will result in a higher acceleration, but the magnets also add some weight, and from what I know, those things are heavy.
Current LSM modules might hit 2g peak acceleration for a very short period of time on a train, but even if Intamin/Indrivetec (who have the highest per module acceleration) would triple the amount of LSM modules, it would still result in an acceleration of "just" ~4g for any remotely longer amount of time (we are talking about less than a second here).

10g with LSM is, as of now, simply not possible for a rollercoaster. The trains are too long, too heavy, and the amount of electricity required might also be too high.
 
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Hixee

Flojector
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10g with LSM is, as of now, simply not possible for a rollercoaster. The trains are too long, too heavy, and the amount of electricity required might also be too high.
This is the bit I wanted to be sure of, and you're absolutely right.
 

Hyde

Matt SR
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If helpful with the backseat engineering - TTD's undercarriage might actually see a weight reduction switching from hydraulic to LSM. For Dragster's specific magnetic braking design, all the magnets rode on the train, rather than having magnets on the track and metal brake fin on the train as is more traditional. (Same for other Accelerator models too)

LSMs, by comparison, typically require less magnets on the undercarriage, thanks in part to being able to have a more shared load of magnets between the train and track (that is, magnets are on both sides of the equation, rather than just the train or just the track).

Ultimately, we'll see what the future holds. The speculation of swing launch for instance partly hinges on the simple question for if the launch track as is would be enough runway for a magnetic launch.
 

Trax

Mega Poster
LSMs, by comparison, typically require less magnets on the undercarriage, thanks in part to being able to have a more shared load of magnets between the train and track (that is, magnets are on both sides of the equation, rather than just the train or just the track).
Just to avoid confusion here, because I know what you mean:
Old TTD has 2 pairs of magnets underneath, which would work for 2 LSM modules towards the outer sides of the track. However, when the LSM modules are located close to each other, you should be able to remove a quarter of the magnets from the trains, as the middle ones (the one between both modules) do interact with both sides of motors.
 
Thats crazy to see a new ride having something like that done!
I know its fine and safe and everything but you'd think these days they'd have to do so much paperwork for such a "modification" lol

You would be suprised at how much......... adjustment..... needs to be done to a new ride. The worst thing I ever saw was a 3 metre gap between the last 2 track pieces.

According to the IntraSys manual, these magnet yokes work as both brakes and motors without any special modifications either way. Dragster has the same type arranged in 5 pairs so in theory, the existing trains would work with IntraSys' double stator setup as they are.
As for weight, they are indeed a bit on the tubby side at 55Kg per yoke.

6EC08F00-F320-4020-9579-E46594F90F8B.jpeg
 

CoasterHour

Roller Poster
So notable block zone aficionado Ryan Chin (aka ElToroRyan) posted a new video with a peculiar rumor: that Intamin may not be involved with the TTD "re-imagining" and Cedar Fair is reaching out to another company. Intamin would then no longer be held liable for the coaster, and Cedar Fair and this new company would take full liability going forward.


He makes a point to take this rumor with a grain of salt, but it would be an interesting twist if true.
Well, interestingly enough Top Thrill Dragster was taken down from the Intamin website completely which would make sense if they are no longer liable. It was under their LSM Launch Coaster portfolio like how Kingda Ka and Xcelerator were until recently. Defunct rides like Volcano and Wicked Twister still remain on the website for reference.
 

Aaron Smith

Mega Poster
I couldn’t get a picture of the removed track pieces since I was on Iron Dragon but I’m glad a picture was posted. There was work being done this morning when the park opened for early entry but I couldn’t see what’s going on. Most of the brake fins on the launch have been removed. The only ones that seem to remain at near the end of the launch.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Peter Immelmann

Mega Poster
Do I understand correctly that they only remove the track at the launch side and not at the brake side? Then we may also consider the possibility that they reverse the direction the train navigates the course. Maybe it's simpler to replace the former brake fins with the launch fins and change the track of the former launch side more significantly.

Actually, TBO I'd be somewhat surprised if they would just make some rather technical changes without upgrading the coaster in a way that would be widely recognized by the public. This seems like such a missed opportunity. Cedar Point always went for some kind of record, wouldn't it be their opportunity to get back the world's height record? Now, I'm NOT thinking of something like elevating the top hat or something. That's for sure unrealistic. But what they could do is to add another element that is higher, the cheapest one being a spike. So, here's my proposal for a layout:

They use the former brake segment for the LSM launch, that is, now you'd have the 270 degree roll on the way up the top hat. They put another booster launch that may contain an airtime hill for variety on the former launch side (replacing that track by new one) and put a spike at the end of it. After reaching the spikes top the train falls back and is caught by the brakes. It comes to a stop in the valley next to the spike (or the other one before the airtime hill depending on where brakes kick in). It finally leaves the booster launch section via a turn-table or switch track that brings it back to the station.

The structure of the spike will cost a lot of money but probably quite a bit less than a top hat of similar height. I guess splitting up the launch for the max speed you need for the height record also makes some sense. So, this is probably among the cheapest ways to get the height record back whilst retaining most of this iconic attraction. What do you think?
 
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Trax

Mega Poster
Do I understand correctly that they only remove the track at the launch side and not at the brake side? Then we may also consider the possibility that they reverse the direction the train navigates the course.
They’d have to replace track pieces anyway, as there is a significant stretch of straight track before the train hits the brakes. In addition, you can’t mount LSM modules onto retractable brake mounts. And actually, I am not sure if you could fit a LSM to a normal brake mount.

It might be possible to use the same magnet setup, so they can reuse the brake section, but this is not certain, yet. I mean, they have to start the works somewhere, and they might(!) move on to the brakes once the launch is done.
 

Christian

Hyper Poster
I agree. Using the current breaking side as a launch side would be better. It's a longer piece of track and it moves the whole launch mechanism away from the public walkways, eliminating any fear of bystanders getting hit by bits falling off. The current launch side is right next to the midway, it would be harder to shield that. I also personally prefer the idea of launching up into the spiral and falling down straight, instead of the opposite.
 

MestnyiGeroi

Giga Poster
I can’t chime in as to where the piece was found, but surely turning it in to park authorities — rather than keeping it as a souvenir — would have aided and maybe expedited the immediate investigation into what happened and why.
 

roomraider

Best Topic Starter
I think the comments about changing the ride to navigate the course clockwise giving a longer track for LSM along with a possible rolling launch could be on to something.
I mean I originally suggested it as a kind of a joke but doing it this way round would also make adding a transfer track and spike for a swing launch way way easier.
 
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