Matt N
CF Legend
Oh wow… that’s a weird place for it to stall! I’d have thought it would just roll back down to the launch track under its own gravity from there!
WTF Merlin?
- Thread starter nadroJ
- Start date
JoshC.
Strata Poster
Alton Towers should probably make sure they get someone to
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sign designs...
cookie
Giga Poster
The updated park map has removed it completely, so if it is ever coming back it won’t be anytime soon.
Tonkso
Hyper Poster
A lot of downtime at Alton today 
nearly hours on park and we've only done Nemesis, Sub Terra and GalacticAir.
Not a good day, unfortunately, and it had started so well with Nemesis. The Smiler has been closed nearly all day and I doubt it will reopen. Spinball and Rita the same.
Edit: things now opening but there's only 90 min left on park.
nearly hours on park and we've only done Nemesis, Sub Terra and GalacticAir.Not a good day, unfortunately, and it had started so well with Nemesis. The Smiler has been closed nearly all day and I doubt it will reopen. Spinball and Rita the same.
Edit: things now opening but there's only 90 min left on park.
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VonRolland
Hyper Poster
You guessed it in just over 48hrs after opening the Nemesis animatronic teeth aren't working, I expected two weeks tbh. Yikes
Tonkso
Hyper Poster
I have a question around RAP, given it was so busy (and actually 'full') on Sunday. Now, I think RAP is objectively a good thing as it allows those who otherwise wouldn't be able to the opportunity to enjoy parks and rides, no argument there. My question is, are there really that many people who need it? Now, I visited with my Mother-in-Law who has pain in her knees but was able to queue all day, though looking at the RAP queues it didn't seem like many people were in any worse a situation. Obviously I know not every disability is visible, but I can't see the numbers adding up. Are some people taking the piss? If not, fair enough and I'll retract the comment but it's hardly fair on those of us who have to queue, and even more unfair on those who genuinely need RAP who now have to queue for 10-15 minutes at the RAP entrance.
As I understand it, RAP should be for those with limited mobility, or those who standing for long durations is painful, and as someone who wants rides to be available to as many people as possible I really do like the concept.
Additionally, did nobody at Alton look at the R.A.P.E. sign for Wicker Man and not notice it? I saw it immediately as I got off the ride, and have since seen it on here and on other socials. That's a Susan Album Party level blunder.
As I understand it, RAP should be for those with limited mobility, or those who standing for long durations is painful, and as someone who wants rides to be available to as many people as possible I really do like the concept.
Additionally, did nobody at Alton look at the R.A.P.E. sign for Wicker Man and not notice it? I saw it immediately as I got off the ride, and have since seen it on here and on other socials. That's a Susan Album Party level blunder.
Matt N
CF Legend
I don't think that people with mobility issues make up the bulk of RAP users these days. The service is now used far more by people with hidden disabilities (e.g. autism, ADHD), and the considerable rise in diagnoses of these conditions has resulted in vastly increased RAP usage in recent years. The RAP queues aren't full with people who have a mobility-based reason for being unable to queue, they're full of people who have psychological reasons for being unable to queue (for instance, people who don't understand the concept of delayed gratification, or people who get distressed in queues for whatever reason). That is likely why the people in the RAP queue didn't appear to be in a worse state mobility-wise than your mother-in-law.
In recent seasons, the system has proved problematic in terms of the queues it causes. The RAP queues have now often become bonafide queues in themselves on peak days, which has resulted in complaints from both RAP users and those in the main queues. Merlin did attempt to rectify this for the 2024 season by introducing RAP pre-booking and limiting the number of RAP slots, but this didn't work because the system went online many hours earlier than they had originally said it would. As such, numerous people who had tickets booked for opening weekend complained that they were unable to get RAP and threatened to sue Merlin for discrimination, so Merlin had to renege on this and allow people to get RAP without pre-booking on opening weekend.
I'd imagine that RAP queues might grow a little less crowded in future as the new booking system beds in a little and the initial teething problems are ironed out.
Fleetwood_Mack
Mega Poster
It sounds like you might not have fully grasped the concept of not every disability being visible.
Also, the RAP is not a free form of fast track. After we've been on a ride we have to wait the queue time of that ride before we can rock up to the next. What's unfair about that exactly?
As someone who falls into the "physically disabled" bracket - I'll admit that yes I have struggled a bit more in recent years with RAP queues. But that's life. I don't expect a red carpet rolled out for me everywhere I go. I'm no more a priority than someone who struggles mentally with queueing. I just visit parks when I assume they're going to be quieter. Most of the time that works out.
Tonkso
Hyper Poster
I have grasped it, and totally understand that there are people with additional needs that aren't visible or immediately obvious. My post wasn't intended to come across as nasty or misunderstanding of those with needs, it's the numbers that I am questioning.
I also understand it's more analogous to a virtual queue than a fastpass, the implementation is good I think, no issue there. no complaints.
What I am asking is why do there seem to be so many more people using it than in previous years? Long covid is a thing that affects many people in many different ways (it gave me Hayfever, wtf?) so that could be an explanation. I'm also not complaining about it extending my queues per say, but how it affects those who need it. Perhaps I am wrong and nobody is a taking advantage when they shouldn't, but it is noticeably a larger number of people than it was before.
Nicky Borrill
Strata Poster
Really good summary that Matt.
The thing that bugs me though, and I know I'm going to upset a few with this, is that many of them 'can' queue when they want to. They've proven this time and time again by still joining long RAP queues despite being warned to try elsewhere and come back later. It seems a lot are just gaming the system to queue 'less.'
So for example, if Nemesis is on a 4 hour queue, they're more than happy to queue 1 to 2 hours for RAP rather than riding the other coasters, because they're still 'winning.' And yet, if Oblivion is on a 20 minute queue, they'll still use the RAP, because they can't queue 20 minutes, and will get to walk on with RAP instead... Which is it?
RAP should be for those who physically cannot stand in a queue. (Be that for an actual physical condition, or a more serious psychological / hidden one.) It pains me to see people who quite literally cannot physically stand, forced to queue in the RAP queue because it's over subscribed. Those that can queue if they want to / need to, but would 'rather queue less' should queue like everyone else.
Trouble is, and always has been, how do you decide that, and who makes those decisions? You can't go entirely 'physical disability only' because there are some with level 2 or 3 autism and similar conditions, who also genuinely can't stand for lengthy times, and wouldn't dream of joining a longer RAP queue. So it's an impossible line to draw. It's always going to be open to abuse, and there's nothing really can be done about it without discriminating against those who really need it.
Before anybody takes this too personally, and without getting too personal, I could abuse it myself, and I choose not to, because as much as I hate queuing, and often do suffer in long queues, I don't think I 'need' it enough, there are people who need it much more. My comments are not aimed at anybody who thinks they 'need' it. it's aimed at those that are still happy to queue 2 hours in RAP, as long as it's shorter than the main queue, rather than doing something else and come back. Believe me, they're out there, in higher numbers than anybody wants to admit, for fear of reprisal.
Also, as a side note, since other posts have come in whilst I'm typing, I don't care about it making our queue longer, or whether they actually utilise the timeout properly and make it fair... I care about those who really need it having to stand in longer queues because it's being abused... (If those abusing it were in the main queue, it would still mean I personally have to queue the same amount of time... )
Fleetwood_Mack
Mega Poster
That's exactly why I avoid peak days, opening weekends or any "events". I didn't know RAP queues could reach 2 hours. That's insane if true. I struggled with them a little at Towers a couple of years back, and most of those were 10 minutes max on a quiet weekday in June. If I saw a 1-2 hour RAP queue I'd be asking for a refund. I just couldn't.
If the system is being abused, how are they going to prove it and better gatekeep it? As it stands, you don't just walk into any park and get handed these passes on a silver platter on demand. You have to submit evidence in advance and be approved. Everyone using it has to have submitted some form of evidence. I have wheelbarrows full of potential evidence I could send over
So if someone has supporting documents, how on earth do they then tell the difference between someone like myself, and someone that just "technically" qualifies. I don't think it's possible... Quick medical exam by a resident neurologist before they hand the pass over? (Other medical fields are available... I just went with my problematic... area)
If the system is being abused, how are they going to prove it and better gatekeep it? As it stands, you don't just walk into any park and get handed these passes on a silver platter on demand. You have to submit evidence in advance and be approved. Everyone using it has to have submitted some form of evidence. I have wheelbarrows full of potential evidence I could send over
So if someone has supporting documents, how on earth do they then tell the difference between someone like myself, and someone that just "technically" qualifies. I don't think it's possible... Quick medical exam by a resident neurologist before they hand the pass over? (Other medical fields are available... I just went with my problematic... area)
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Nicky Borrill
Strata Poster
It's impossible, and not something Merlin should even begin to think about tackling in this age of more and more litigation.That's exactly why I avoid peak days, opening weekends or any "events". Even then I didn't even know RAP queues could reach 2 hours. That's insane if true. I struggled with them a little at Towers a couple of years back, and most of those were 10 minutes max on a quiet weekday in June. If I saw a 1-2 hour RAP queue I'd be asking for a refund. I just couldn't.
If the system is being abused, how are they going to prove it and better gatekeep it? As it stands, you don't just walk into any park and get handed these passes on a silver platter on demand. You have to submit evidence in advance and be approved. Everyone using it has to have submitted some form of evidence. I have wheelbarrows full of potential evidence I could send over
They're doing the right thing now, with the pre books, that 'should' help ease the situation a little, apart from a few key times such as new ride openings. It's the only way they can fairly and legally do it. I relate it to disabled parking spaces. To be inclusive they must (and should) offer some spaces, so that everybody has a chance to use their services, however, there is a limit to those spaces any business can offer, if they're full, they're full, you try another day or use the normal spaces. This prebooking system is exactly the same thing really.
As for the abusers, I have a young lad that works for me (I won't name any names as some people here know my staff.) who has a very very mild condition. He's highly functioning, one of our best youngsters to be honest, and will tell you himself he can queue just fine (which he'll do when he visits with us.) But his Mum has used his diagnosis to obtain a RAP so 'they don't have to stand in queues when they visit as a family.'
I also had a conversation with a family on the skyride who were being very (proudly) open about the fact they didn't need the RAP, but had gotten one anyway, so now they didn't have to queue. (It was that very conversation that gave me such strong feelings on the matter actually.)
Back in 03-04 it was part of my job in guest services to check evidence and hand out access wristbands (as they were back then, the red wristbands.) There were so few people applying for them each day that we'd usually just give the whole party a wristband so they could ride together. One of my favourite days on that job was when I was actually asked to help a family by pushing the wheelchair around all day, had a blast. Nowadays, there's so many abusers, that the service, those who need it get, is rubbish, and bordering on pointless.
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I don’t know much but I always thought RAP might work best as a Six Flags style ‘wait 80%-100% of the posted queue length outside of the queue / one electronic booking at a time / then return at the time slot’ sort of thing… it wouldn’t mean that people who can’t endure a queue don’t have to queue… but there is also less of an incentive to ‘exploit’ it, maybe?
Again… I don’t know much…
Again… I don’t know much…
Nicky Borrill
Strata Poster
They've had the timeout system for a long time. But it was done the wrong way around IMO. How I believe it worked at Towers was that you'd join the RAP queue, then get 'timed out' for the stated queue time, so you couldn't ride anything else in that time.
Unfortunately, as 'the skyride family' were only too happy to shout, it meant that groups, like them, with multiple RAP passes could alternate their passes. And that they'd just join a normal queue whilst fully timed out, maximising their rides. Infuriating isn't it?
(I'm using past tense as I've no idea how it works this season, or last. May be the same, may have changed)
Fleetwood_Mack
Mega Poster
I don't know if it's the same across all Merlin parks, but when I was at Chessington last year they were rolling out a mobile app as a replacement to having the card/booklet. You'd select a ride on the app and it would either give you a time to get on or tell you walk on through. After you'd ride something the app would feature a countdown to when you could ride something again. Which in theory was the queue time of whatever you'd just been on. However, the app didn't seem to be at all popular with staff and spent most of the day glitching out, with operators just telling us to get on and not worry about it. The app also drained my battery and I really didn't want to be stood around with my phone in my hand all day. Us disabled people, we're very good at dropping, misplacing etc. our phones. Being forced to use my phone all day is another layer of stress I don't need It was a poorly thought out and executed system which I hope has been axed or re-thought this year!
It was a poorly thought out and executed system which I hope has been axed or re-thought this year!
Furiustobaco
Mega Poster
I have said a LOT on RAP as an ex user and I still qualify! I am going to be harsh here and be savage, The reason this is not a problem in most EU/US parks is simply the culture in the UK. The kind of entitlement and the "I have XYZ wrong" with me so I deserve AB. It could be a minor problem that does not affect their ability to queue. I have seen people forge letters, use small conditions, and everything under the sun. Before I am called ableist, I am an epileptic with two shunts, and 35 brain surgeries, but I still queue normally. When I was immobile and a part wheelchair user post surgery, I used RAP. It was a lifeline that was needed. Now, I could get it with a click of the finger, but I don't. I can queue now, and IMO, I don't deserve it, and there is people who actually need it.
I have seen about 10 different friends of mine have small conditions who are people who are more than capable use it, as to them it is a free fastrack, that is how it is viewed. Someone even said to me "I have free fastrack as I had have a hip problem". This person did a 9 mile hike the next day,
I think quite frankly the ones who shout discrimination are ludicrous. RAP is not a right, it is somewhat of a service to help the few who need it. People complain when they limit the numbers, people complain when there is too many RAP users. Maybe Merlin should just release a frank statement saying how RAP is something that they can say no to. Nobody is guaranteed to be able to access it. Or maybe it limit groups to 2, and make a way for the pass holder and carer can meet up with the rest of their group once they are finished queueing? I feel like that would nerf it and maybe make it less desirable for those do not need it.
I have seen about 10 different friends of mine have small conditions who are people who are more than capable use it, as to them it is a free fastrack, that is how it is viewed. Someone even said to me "I have free fastrack as I had have a hip problem". This person did a 9 mile hike the next day,
I think quite frankly the ones who shout discrimination are ludicrous. RAP is not a right, it is somewhat of a service to help the few who need it. People complain when they limit the numbers, people complain when there is too many RAP users. Maybe Merlin should just release a frank statement saying how RAP is something that they can say no to. Nobody is guaranteed to be able to access it. Or maybe it limit groups to 2, and make a way for the pass holder and carer can meet up with the rest of their group once they are finished queueing? I feel like that would nerf it and maybe make it less desirable for those do not need it.
Fleetwood_Mack
Mega Poster
At one point the Merlin parks did have it so that you could only ride with one person using RAP, it just didn't work if you were in a group of people unfortunately. The whole "have your friends wait in the queue and try and get on the same train" theory was an absolute ball-ache in practise. If I'm not mistaken that system only lasted a couple of seasons before the number of carers/guests went back up to 3.
BPB had the same "one carer" rule during my last visit and it just resulted in our group being split up for most of the day. It didn't ruin the day completely but it would have been a lot nicer to have the day together as a group.
I don't quite understand the desire that people have to "blag" an RAP at any park. There was a time at the Merlin parks before they started doing the "time out" thing where you'd be free to ride anything as often as you liked, but now you don't actually "skip" any queues... so what do these people actually think they're getting out of it?
BPB had the same "one carer" rule during my last visit and it just resulted in our group being split up for most of the day. It didn't ruin the day completely but it would have been a lot nicer to have the day together as a group.
I don't quite understand the desire that people have to "blag" an RAP at any park. There was a time at the Merlin parks before they started doing the "time out" thing where you'd be free to ride anything as often as you liked, but now you don't actually "skip" any queues... so what do these people actually think they're getting out of it?
Nicky Borrill
Strata Poster
Because, even when they do timeout properly, (which they don’t always, lets be honest,) people game the system, as mentioned previously. They have multiple RAPs per group, or they’ll join normal queues (you know, the ones they have said they can’t cope with,) whilst timed out.
Fleetwood_Mack
Mega Poster
Yeah - in my experience it's never been uncommon for ops to either not write the full queue time down or even just say "don't worry about it"... especially towards the end of the day when they all start looking like they're losing the will to live
I would like to see these systems tightened up and made harder for lowlifes to abuse but as we've said - it's nearly impossible to think of a way to do so without causing a stir. Maybe some kind of electronic wristband system that only gets you through certain gates/turnstiles? IE green wristband gives you access to the main queue, red for RAP...