What's new

Why Don't Hyper Coasters...

Nick P

Mega Poster
...ever hit a max vertical angle of 90 degrees? I’m talking mainly about B&M and Intamin. (Excluding dive machines.)
Usually the normal vertical angle for a B&M hyper coaster is 75 degrees, with the exception of Leviathan hitting 80(considered a giga). Intamin usually hits 80-85 degrees, but neither of the companies ever hit 90. Now I could probably imagine B&M not hitting the benchmark of 90 degrees, for their hyper coasters are a bit more tame (arguable) than Intamins. Their hypers are great as is anyways. Now, Intamin on the other hand, is a bit more of an “intense” company and would probably consider taking their coasters a step further. You would think they would just that extra 5 degrees and call it a day, but that’s not the case. Why? Wouldn’t a 90 degree drop be that much more exhilarating? (Even more airtime, more intensity, ect)

This is just a small question that been floating around in my head for a while. I’d be glad to hear your guys’ responses.

Thanks
 

Smithy

Strata Poster
I suppose with B&M, one of the reasons might be that doing so would mean it would negate the desire for companies to actually invest in dive machines; why pay for a dive machine when you have a Giga that does the same thing, other than the holding brake what would be unique about it?

I'm sure there's other issues (spring loaded wheels being the reason Oblivion isn't actually 90 degrees I recall) that play it's part though.
 

Pokemaniac

Mountain monkey
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Good question, actually.

The S&S 4Ds all have a close to vertical drop, so it certainly isn't impossible (if it can be done with those trains, it can be done with regular Hyper trains, I guess).

My best guess would be that it has something to do with the transition from horizontal to vertical at the top of the lift.
A direct 0-to-90-transition would have to be taken at a relatively slow speed, to avoid an uncomfortable amount of negative Gs. I'd wager that is the reason why the 4Ds "dip" after the first initial drop: Having to pull the rear cars over the top slows down the train until all of it is in a more or less vertical position. That way, the train doesn't take the transition too fast, and it doesn't strain the chain lift as much (where the lift chain would hold back the entire train, preventing it from plummeting off the drop).

Whereas a standard, gradual transition is what you want on a Hyper. Going slowly over that top sends you floating out of your seat, which causes that stomach feeling we all love. You feel the drop getting steeper and steeper, instead of slamming into vertical from the get go. Psychologically, it might even feel steeper that way (not too sure on this). I think a train theoretically could reach a fully vertical position with such a transition, but it requires a really, really tall lift hill.

Another factor - wildly guessing here - could be the forces involved. A train picks up some speed in the forward direction as it goes down the drop (less so if the transition is abrupt, such as with the DMs and 4Ds). This gives it a lot of inertia heading straight forward.
Now, going directly vertical means you can't have a forward component of speed. You have to kill all that inertia during the transition from "steep" to "truly vertical". Doing some calculations on this would probably be a good idea considering my upcoming Physics exam, but it's a little late in the evening now and I'm not quite sure on how to adress the problem. A regular steep drop would lower the forward inertia by a lot, but not take it all away. I'm not sure if the difference has anything to say, but it might be a factor.

Any help, fellow engineers?
 

Hixee

Flojector
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Social Media Team
^I think you're half right. There really isnt that big of a problem going to 90° for big trains like the hypers, I think it's simply a case of 'no point'. You realistically aren't going to notice the biggest difference in 10-15° extra on the drop, so I think they're avoiding the extra hassle. I'm not convinced that the stopping of the inertia in the horizontal direction is that big of a problem either, as once you're at 80° you're nearly there anyway. ;)

Poke's answer makes sense, but personally I think it's more of a case of not seeing the need. Other than a record, what good would it do? If someone wanted it to be done, from my experience it's hardly going to be a big deal to design. It's certainly more than possible. This leads me to think that it must be more than no park/manufacturer sees the need to do it. I think this is because there's no interest in it, not that it couldn't be done.
 

Taxi

Mega Poster
^I agree with both posts above. If hypers were to have 90* drops, either the trains would be short, height would have to be drastically increased, or if neither of those apply---the 90* portion would be minuscule and quite forceful/painful. Like Hixee said, what's the point? Eejanaika & Dinoconda, and the Intamin accelerators are the only "hypers" that feature a 90* drop.
 

andrus

Giga Poster
Except the above mentioned factors I think that it has a lot to do with drop length. Let me explain: on lower coasters and coasters with more shallow drops the portion where the ride levels out is rather small. But on a tall, high speed coaster with a steep drop the level out portion of the ride has to bee a lot longer due to prevent extreme g's. If you look at the B&M dive machines some of them start to level out already half way up the drop! So by keeping the drop angle at ~80° you still get an exhilarating drop but it also last longer than a vertical drop from the same height would!
 

Nick P

Mega Poster
andrus said:
Except the above mentioned factors I think that it has a lot to do with drop length. Let me explain: on lower coasters and coasters with more shallow drops the portion where the ride levels out is rather small. But on a tall, high speed coaster with a steep drop the level out portion of the ride has to bee a lot longer due to prevent extreme g's. If you look at the B&M dive machines some of them start to level out already half way up the drop! So by keeping the drop angle at ~80° you still get an exhilarating drop but it also last longer than a vertical drop from the same height would!

But that brings up the question about Skyrush. Pretty short first drop for such a steep angle. It hits 85, then immediately levels out with a thigh crushing 5g's. I would assume that would be the absolute max amount of force Intamin would tolerate. Lets imagine Skyrush was 250ft tall though. Couldn't Intamin pull of just five more degrees? They would have an extra 50ft of track to work with. It sounds doable to me, unless I'm missing something.

All in all, I believe Hixee is right though. It's technically doable, just pointless.
(I was just thinking, maybe if they advertise the drop hitting 90 degree's it could potentially add a small awe factor. I'd assume people would say, "Wow, would you look at how steep that drop is?!" Then again, there are other coasters out there that are even steeper than 90 degrees... Only coaster enthusiasts would recognize an Intamin Hyper, which hit 90 degrees, as something new.)
 

Gazza

Giga Poster
Why don't you.......put the full question in the topic title?

You've got enough leftover characters to do so. Trying to be enigmatic or something?
 

tomahawk

Strata Poster
To note with the 4D coasters, they all flip the riders face down going into the drop, and I am guessing on this part, but doesn't that invert the forces in a way? I mean if you were to have ejector it would just push your back into the seat, and that's what happens especially in the back row. The pull out on that ride (only 4D I have ridden, but looking at all the others, they are very similar in the sense that all the drops are the same) is extremely intense, and they flip the riders over again towards the bottom, because otherwise all the forces would be against the restraints, instead it is, once again, on the back.

I may be talking out my ass, I don't know.
 

Hixee

Flojector
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Social Media Team
^No no, you're spot on. That's something that's actually kinda clever with the 4D coasters. They kill two birds with one stone. They can control the direction in which the forces applied by rotating the cards, but also they can give some incredibly unique sensations to the riders (like falling face first down that massive first drop).

Where I disagree is that this doesn't really mean you couldn't make a 90° hyper coaster. Look at El Toro, Skyrush, Outlaw Run - they all have drops that are around 80°, and in the case of Skyrush and El Toro the train is going pretty fast when it enters the drop. I really don't think adding 5-10° would be a problem from an engineering standpoint, or a rider discomfort standpoint. I just also think that adding 5-10° wouldn't do anything different to the ride.
 

Taxi

Mega Poster
Hixee said:
^No no, you're spot on. That's something that's actually kinda clever with the 4D coasters. They kill two birds with one stone. They can control the direction in which the forces applied by rotating the cards, but also they can give some incredibly unique sensations to the riders (like falling face first down that massive first drop).

Where I disagree is that this doesn't really mean you couldn't make a 90° hyper coaster. Look at El Toro, Skyrush, Outlaw Run - they all have drops that are around 80°, and in the case of Skyrush and El Toro the train is going pretty fast when it enters the drop. I really don't think adding 5-10° would be a problem from an engineering standpoint, or a rider discomfort standpoint. I just also think that adding 5-10° wouldn't do anything different to the ride.

That pretty much answers the OP. Also, making it 90* would make it more difficult to support. Although Intamin shouldn't have a problem with that(Skyrush/I305).
 

Hixee

Flojector
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Social Media Team
Taxi said:
Hixee said:
^No no, you're spot on. That's something that's actually kinda clever with the 4D coasters. They kill two birds with one stone. They can control the direction in which the forces applied by rotating the cards, but also they can give some incredibly unique sensations to the riders (like falling face first down that massive first drop).

Where I disagree is that this doesn't really mean you couldn't make a 90° hyper coaster. Look at El Toro, Skyrush, Outlaw Run - they all have drops that are around 80°, and in the case of Skyrush and El Toro the train is going pretty fast when it enters the drop. I really don't think adding 5-10° would be a problem from an engineering standpoint, or a rider discomfort standpoint. I just also think that adding 5-10° wouldn't do anything different to the ride.

That pretty much answers the OP. Also, making it 90* would make it more difficult to support. Although Intamin shouldn't have a problem with that(Skyrush/I305).
Again, more difficult, but nothing ANY coaster company couldn't handle if they were asked to. Look at Millennium Force: http://rcdb.com/594.htm?p=30481 , or I305 (for a more modern supporting style for these large coasters): http://rcdb.com/4520.htm?p=30604

Neither of these could need to be adapted too heavily to take the drop to 90°. If anything the new style would be easier.
 
Top