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The Big Question

Are you a believer?

  • Atheist

    Votes: 21 55.3%
  • Agnostic

    Votes: 10 26.3%
  • Believer

    Votes: 7 18.4%

  • Total voters
    38

nadroJ

CF Legend
Do you believe in God and are you religious? If so, how 'actively' do you practice this religion, or are you just religious simply by family, or something similar.

Personally I am an atheist and find it completely illogical how someone of this day and age can believe in God and other such things. However, it does intrigue me and I would love to know what it feels like to have a strong blind faith in something just so I could see where someone is coming from when they do believe in God, or if in actual fact they have some kind of niggling doubt about their own religion.

Vote/discuss away!
 

kimahri

CF Legend
I was obviously cared for by a weird lady inside my mother's womb that erased all my memory of her when I was born.
 

gavin

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I'm currently stuck halfway through a one hour 45 minute wait at Chester station, thus proving, once and for all, that there is no God.
 

rollermonkey

Strata Poster
I think it takes as much faith to be an atheist as it does to believe in a deity.

I don't believe or not believe. Indecisive agnosticism for the win.
 

Ian

From CoasterForce
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I don't believe in God. Religion plays no role in my life, expect for the laws dreamed up using Christian values by the political powers that be.

I wouldn't say I'm an atheist because I don't care that much.

God/religion is irrelevant in my life but I love church buildings and am fascinated by the way people dress up in silly clothes and devote their life to something unproven. It's like a cult.
 

Hixee

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Ian said:
I don't believe in God. Religion plays no role in my life, expect for the laws dreamed up using Christian values by the political powers that be.

I wouldn't say I'm an atheist because I don't care that much.

God/religion is irrelevant in my life but I love church buildings and am fascinated by the way people dress up in silly clothes and devote their life to something unproven. It's like a cult.
This. Except I'd change this:
Ian said:
It's like a cult
to
It's just a cult

I am an atheist, but I don't like to make a fuss about it. I find it absurd people could believe in God, but provided they're doing no harm and not forcing it on me, then they're fine to believe whatever they like as far as I'm concerned.
34130_700.jpg
 

furie

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I'm an atheist, but not a practising one ;)

I'm in an odd position that until I was in my early 20's, I was a pretty devout Christian. So I know a lot about the Christian church, the way it works, the theology, the rituals and the "myth".

I also know that when you're embedded in the society, it's hard to break out of the mindset and "questioning" isn't encouraged.

I also know that it isn't all paedophiles and brain-washing. There is, at core, good there. However, it's not anything that shouldn't/couldn't be instilled by parents.

I know my faith started leaving when I had to question the religion. It began with the Nicene Creed which asks God to forgive all those who aren't Christians (along with a load of other stuff). I couldn't understand it. If I was born an Indian or Chinese, my faith would almost definitely not be Christian. I'd be whatever faith my parents were. So I learned a bit about other religions and found that there are other monotheistic religions that essentially worship the same God in pretty much the same why. Why would God make me say a prayer that asked for Muslims to be forgiven, when they worship him too? Surely all He wants is for his little people on Earth to praise him and get along?

The cracks appear then. You notice that a lot of "good Christians" aren't actually very nice people at all (again, this isn't a blanket thing, there were certainly a lot of very pleasant Christians). They're greedy, selfish and manipulative - even up to people who are "ranked" like the church wardens, readers, etc.

I realised that in truth, some people don't really seem to actually believe in God as much as they believe in the Church, or the rituals. Certainly the things taught by the bible and faith seemed to pass them by completely. Christians should help each other, be genuinely nice to each other and avoid "sin". Yet some wouldn't say hello in the street (and certainly would think four or five times before pissing on you to put you out if you were on fire) and most of them regularly sinned and repeated the same sins.

I couldn't understand a couple of things really.

1. How can they go to church each week to be absolved of their sins and keep repeating the same sins and claim to be "religious"? Surely when you stand in front of God and he says "why, week after week, did you do the same things and make no effort to correct your ways"?

2. How people who act (outside of church) in such an un-Christian manner can call themselves Christians? It's a way of life, not something you force yourself out of bed for every other Sunday, if you can be bothered.

Once those cracks were in place, the whole thing started falling apart. Religion just doesn't work.

Then you start to research beyond the doctrine and find out that the entire thing is balanced on the belief that God told people (the same kind of people who play act at being Christians each week) what he wanted in his religion and how people should behave. You have groups through history making decisions based on "God's word to them". People "directed by God's hand". What if, just what if, these people weren't? What if they were doing it for their own political gain? What if the sin they asked for redemption for every Sunday was the sin of "religious manipulation for selfish reasons"?

Religion is built upon the broken foundations of corrupt/corruptible men.

I spent a bit of time wallowing around in agnosticism (and by definition, all atheists are to a degree agnostic), but in my late 20's I did more reading, more research and had a lot of discussions with people about it. I eventually came to the conclusion (which was always obvious) that if there is a God, then he has no influence on us at all and is worthless and chances are, there just isn't one at all.

The thing is, it does take a long time to leave indoctrination and think for yourself. Religion is built on guilt and ignorance. You must remain ignorant and unquestioning or we'll make you feel guilty.

The thing is, I'm not actually anti-religion. I'm anti-religion trying to affect the world. Hixee's amusing post above sums it up. I think there are some things religion teaches that we should follow. We should be nicer to each other and stuff, but it's just the kind of thing people should learn anyway.

I'm struggling at the moment because Maxi-Minor_Furie is a firm believer in God and Jesus. His school isn't supposed to be religious, but it is in the way all British schools are. I could say I want him excluded from all religious ritual, but... I believe that you can't make a choice without experiencing all the options. I also believe it's healthy and natural for a six year old to have imaginary friends.

The biggest issue is that I'm not going to get into a theological discussion with a six year old. It's something that is hard to do, to tell your child that his teachers are wrong. At that age, there is a level of trust that "adults in charge" are right about stuff, especially big stuff like God and Santa. To destroy that trust is a problem. Who does he believe? It's tough at that age to understand that different people can believe different things when it comes to fundamentals. It's something we'll have to tackle soon though and he can make up his own mind, just as long as he doesn't expect me to go to a church service and pretend to say things I don't believe in.
 

Colossus

Giga Poster
I like many am atheist but not a practicing , I have no problem with peoples religious beliefs, but it`s not really for me, I have a hard time believing something that cannot be proven by cold hard evidence, same as ghosts and aliens really.
 

thx

Mega Poster
I don't really believe in any god, however I still do a short prayer before I go to bed (if there are other people in the room etc. then I do it all silently) it's just something that I've done since I was a kid (you know when you're 4-5 and it's cool to learn a small verse by heart), it's just stuck with me, when I was very young I used to think I get nightmares if I don't do it (lol..), afterwards I just kept it on for some unknown reason. It's not like my family is religious at all, my mom goes to church on Christmas, maybe one time more a year that's the most religion there's in my family.

There are lots of bad things with religion that furie has covered well in the post above. Having said that, I really don't like people, either atheist/believing who feel/act if they are superior than the other part. To be honest I've encountered those attitudes more often from atheists than regular Christian's/muslims etc. (well of course, mainly because I really don't know any very devout/extreme believers etc, but still). It feels like the atheists generally have a lot harder to accept people who are unsure about what to believe in than, if I would say talk to an average Christian about the same issue, at least that's what I've encountered.
 

kimahri

CF Legend
For some bizarre reason my parents are adamant that I'm Christan purely because I was Christenedadasd, or however it's spelled, when I was a wee lil' minikim. When explaining my reasoning for this they go into a denile mode and it gets quite comical when I explain why they are equally not Christian.

However, I kinda used to be like Furie, a dark smelly goth wannabee who hated all religion, EXCEPT SATAN, but I've kinda changed that outlook. I started reading up on other stuff in Bhuddism and Hinduism and although I don't necessarily belive in anything they're saying I can still appreciate what is written in them. Hinduism is esspecially great, it's got like weird ladies throwing them selves on fire and then being reborn and ****, and tigers bombing around being on fire as well, but it's supposed to be and there's like Kali, who isn't evil like in Indy, she just had some PMS and went **** insane, I think. Then there's Ganesha who has an Elephant head, I like Elephants. That's why I like Airavata. There's always some completely entertainingly insane story in pretty much all religions and mythologies.

One thing I can't really agree on is religion seems to promote either a Black and White thinking or put in a very strict shades of grey. They always seem to put events in Either This is a good thing or this is a bad thing, but this thing isn't as good as this or if you do that you'll get a lesser punishment. And I don't think that is the right way to go about things. 2 examples of this (one I'm going to have to do quick research on again cause I can't remeber his name or what exactly happened) are;

The Chuggers, their intentions are good, yes? and as such with a religious out look they'll be praised! But they're **** annoying and you want to strangle them, which is bad, but if they weren't nice then neither they they'd probably still be breathing.

That Nazi dude who worked at either a camp or possibly a castle used as a makeshift prison. He was called Dr Death, I think, and he used to take the prisoner people and do a considerable amout of grizzly experimentation on them. Again, his intentions are statistically good. His experiments did actually help medical sciences advance, I think. But he is condemmed as sick twisted evil man.

What I'm getting at is Religion is stoopid and shuts off the big picture. I'm not saying that we should abandon all forms of order and go all V for Vendetta (The proper way, not the silly movie way.) but stop shunning all things and stuff. I lost my train of thought. Oh well.
 

furie

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thx said:
There are lots of bad things with religion that furie has covered well in the post above. Having said that, I really don't like people, either atheist/believing who feel/act if they are superior than the other part. To be honest I've encountered those attitudes more often from atheists than regular Christian's/muslims etc. (well of course, mainly because I really don't know any very devout/extreme believers etc, but still). It feels like the atheists generally have a lot harder to accept people who are unsure about what to believe in than, if I would say talk to an average Christian about the same issue, at least that's what I've encountered.

It's a difficult one, and there is an arrogance with a lot of atheists, but it's not simply as cut and dried as "superiority complex" - though there definitely is that.

If you are an "open" atheist in America, it can be a death knell. You can lose friends, job prospects, become victimised - it's generally regarded as a very bad thing. There seems to be a thought with Christians especially, that if you're an atheist, then you're a child abusing, devil loving, evil and malicious worthless POS.

Imagine a US senator standing for the presidency and saying "I don't believe in God". He'd be hounded not just out of office, but his neighbourhood, and probably the country. Yet church and state are supposed to be separate, God has no place in politics.

It's not just in the US either, it's the same to a degree over here.

I was chatting to our new accountant recently. I don't generally talk religion, but it cropped up and I said I don't believe in anything and he said "what? You're one of... of them? An atheist?" a bit like I'd just announced I was on the child protection register.

The point is, that atheists feel hard done to and disrespected. So it's works as a kind of harder bite back. I don't want to go all Richard Dawkins (because I think he's a bit of a **** stirrer), but we ARE expected to immediately give respect to the beliefs of somebody who believes in God. Yet if you say you don't believe, then you're treated as scum. There's no respect in religious organisations for atheists. So atheists tend to be much more vehement in their defence of their view and tend to go over the top to prove their way of thinking simply because they feel picked on.

There definitely is a "we're right though and religion is bad" mindset too, but like the bible bashers and jihad loving extremists that give religions a bad name, it's just a vocal minority. I think most people are simply atheist because it's a simple life, you don't need to be concerned with anything other than getting on with your own life.

And Kim, I was never a dark smelly goth wannabe. I've always had excellent personal hygiene :p
 

danielfitzgerald99

Hyper Poster
Firstly I'd like to differentiate between God and religion here. I believe in God but I'm willing to accept that I could be wrong. The truth is we'll never know until we die. For me there is an equal chance that he exists or that he he doesn't. Those are the only 2 options. It's basic probabilty. Seeing as Atheists can't actually prove he doesn't exist I find it arrogant when they sneer at believers. Likewise I disagree with believers that look down on Atheists. My belief is that belief is not the important thing (that sounds pretty damn profound actually :wink: ). It's your actions that matter. I find a lot of religious people to be sickening.

Now moving onto religion. I'm a Christian in the sense that I follow the teachings of Jesus. I have issues with a lot of content in the Bible which is a book written by people. Jesus was also a person who had taught an ideology of tolerance, forgiveness and charity and I do my best to follow it.

I'm also a strong advocate of Plato's cave theory and in addition to that design theory. This latter part isn't based on rational thinking as was the first part. I also believe in God because of the beauty in the world. It's difficult not to look at nature, flowers, birds, the diversity of life, the love between two people etc and not feel a sense of something divine and greater. Yes, I know I'm going a bit "William Blake" here so I'll stop.

I have other reasons for my beliefs but I won't go into them here because I've already rambled on enough.
 

furie

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danielfitzgerald99 said:
It's basic probabilty. Seeing as Atheists can't actually prove he doesn't exist I find it arrogant when they sneer at believers. Likewise I disagree with believers that look down on Atheists.

The issue is that it's not just 50/50 ;)

An atheist can show psychological studies and anthropology studies that show that the chances are that God and religion are merely the result of evolution or sociological changes that have developed over the years. Feelings of intense religious experience can be attributed to brain/chemical changes and sub-concious influences.

The problem is, nobody wants to be told that they're mad ;) We all know "ourselves" inside our own heads and we know that what we see and feel is "true". In reality, it's not, it's just how our brains try to interpret the world and fit it to a world model that was formed in our brain during childhood (and to a lesser extent as we get older).

The issue really is how much you respect somebody when it comes to that. I feel bad typing this, just because I don't want to make it seem like I'm saying that people are wrong in their heads and that everything is a flight of fantasy. People have feelings and views and they are balanced as well as they can be psychologically and they don't need people poking them in the eye and unbalancing them by proving that "they are wrong" due to scientific studies.

It doesn't matter if God is a brain fart or a wonderful and loving invisible being you meet when you die. The important thing is that people are happy and nice to each other while they're alive.

Both sides want the other side to see that they are right. For the atheist it can be frustrating because they are looking to science for the answers to prove their case. It makes them unpleasant because, well, they're not proving God doesn't exist, they're working on proving that he can be a completely natural by product of human evolution. So they tend to feel they have the high ground while completely missing the point that everyone has the right to be happy :)
 

furie

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UC said:
but I will say that personally, I encounter far more atheists who insist on shoving their agenda down my throat than religious fanatics.

Perhaps it's because atheism is currently "fashionable," but I definitely tend to see it more.

That said, I agree that there are those on every side of this debate that will tend to be louder than others about it, so I by no means classify the actions of a few to be the ideals of all.

One thing that annoyed me for a long time was "pagans"... I encountered a lot of people getting into the paganism trend, but it always seemed to me to be some kind of "edgy" anti-Christian movement rather than anything else, or that's how it came across anyway. It was constantly knocking Christianity and bigging itself up. I guess it's how any "new movement" tries to get itself heard. You diss the opposition to make yourself seem better.

I always try and keep things balanced, I don't disagree with religion if people are using it for the correct purpose (worshipping God and making the world a better place for everyone) and I always try to keep this in mind. It's hard though when you see things like this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/soraya-ch ... 45214.html

Here you have religion imposing itself on the law and forcing people to comply to religious beliefs of others. I think the current atheist "outburst" is part of a kick back against this kind of thing, where they feel that religion has had too much influence over politics. It's fine for the religious to force others through law to their beliefs, so they try to force people through logic and arrogance. IYSWIM?

I think that's it's a typical set of almost self-perpetuating opposing stances though. The louder the atheists get to rally people to their cause, the louder the Christians (and I do believe that it's almost exclusively atheists against Christians) shout and the harder they force each other to push.

I also think there's a big difference between the US and UK on this too. In the UK, we're naturally very lax in our religious attitudes. So atheists get a very easy soap box. Every time religion comes into play, everyone just gets annoyed with them (currently about gay marriage) and the law does not bend to the will of religion - public opinion does not automatically fall to the religious. It's easy to be a loud atheist over here and I think it's catching.

Anyway, yes I do agree that atheists will tend to push harder, but you know what it's like UC when you've got the logical high ground (It IS Gerstlauer (based on the evidence)) :p

I do apologise if I've ever come across like that. I will discuss the matter sincerely, but I try to also not be preachy. I do find the entire thing utterly fascinating too, hence my amount of posts on the subject.

I am often quite sardonic about religion though, but that's a natural scepticism about the whole thing, rather than individuals and their own religious thoughts. I've always said that if you're strong in your faith, then it doesn't matter what people say and it's always those most comfortable with it that are generally the more relaxed about criticisms.
 

furie

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I think that entering into a theological debate with you may destroy the server UC, so I'll keep it to a lighter discussion :lol:

I guess from an atheist point of view, the fact there is "no proof of God" is proof that there isn't a God, but obviously it's an argument that doesn't stand up, as you say, neither side really has an argument so it descends into madness.

I'd like to think I'd like to read more on the evolution and anthropology side of the development of religion, but I know it would be too "preachy" :lol: So it wouldn't interest me in the same way as a religious person hunting to find the truth in the bible for example. Plus, it means nothing as again there's no real evidence that could substantiate the claims. It's a theory...

I do think (and I think you agree with me) that people often get "religion" and "belief" confused. It's possible to believe without being tied to 2000 year old dogma. Atheists will attack belief as a result of religion as a way to attack religion, rather than bypassing the individual belief and going for the (generally) real cause of the issues.

For me as an atheist, I'm happy to accept "there may be a God". I'm sure I'll find out when I die. The biggest kind of attitude I guess you need is "what difference to my life does it make if I believe in that God fully, or as a "low possibility""? And yes, people tend to be polar opposites but I guess it's hard for somebody who sees no value in it to understand why anyone would bother :lol:
 
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