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Dreamland Margate’s Future

dj-fireball999

Mega Poster
I think it’s no secret that Dreamland Margate is currently struggling. After 2019 being their most successful year to date since the reopening of the reimagined Dreamland, with over 650,000 visitors that year, the pandemic starting in 2020 seemed to send the park to a grinding halt.

You can see how packed the park was in Easter 2019, here:

The decision to make almost all of their permanent staff redundant at the first sign of the pandemic (which included their entire ride engineering department) meant that they’re absolutely not in any position to reopen the park in any meaningful way without essentially rehiring a whole new team to run the place. (They chose not to Furlough any staff during this time).

Spokespeople from the park keep stating that “due to the nature of their vintage rides, they are unable to run in a socially distanced way”. Which we all know isn’t the case considering that every other park in the U.K. has been able to reopen and run their attractions as normal, all be it with reduced capacity.

What resulted in 2020 and 2021 was contractors being hired to place several vintage rides into storage, as well as the park putting up a lot of the attractions purchased new from Zamperla in 2018 up for sale.

The Zamperla/Soriani Air Race 8.2 was sold even before the pandemic to Parc Spirou Provence and opened as Crash Blorks in 2021, however this was put down to excessive maintenance costs with the need for the floor sections of each gondola needing to be sent away for Non Destructive Testing every three months, as a result of the accident on the same model of Air Race at Brighton Palace Pier that year. This resulted in excessive running costs, ride downtime and manpower needed just to have the ride be certified for use. For Sale Ad Here

The Vintage Caterpillar was also removed not long before the Air Race, however this was due to unsatisfactory work being done by Littleboys Vintage Restorations when they “restored” the ride and meant that it wasn’t viable to operate. It’s currently in storage along with the Brooklands Speedway (which Littleboys also “refurbished” to a poor standard).

Since then, their Zamperla Twister Coaster 420STD (Pinball X) has been sold, relocated and reopened at Flamingo Park, Hastings where it opened in 2021.

The Zamperla/Soriani Midi-Discovery Revolution 16 (Pendulum) has recently been sold to an unknown park. Link here- generic pictures used in the ad

The Zamperla Samba Balloons (Up, Up and Away) and the Zamperla Magic Bikes (Soaring Seagulls) have also been recently sold to unknown parks.

The park’s Zamperla Jumpin’ Star is also currently for sale along with their Zamperla/Soriani Endeavour (Dreamcatcher) link here.

The park did reopen in 2021 with eight attractions, mostly being hired in travelling funfair rides operated by their respective owners, however I can’t imagine this is profitable for Dreamland in any meaningful way.

They have continued to run events as per usual though, so they’re potentially getting some income from those.

I personally don’t think that the park a ever going to reach the potential seen back in 2019, and I doubt that it’ll last much longer in its current state. I believe that if the park was run by anyone other than Sands Heritage, that it would be recovering in line with the rest of the U.K. leisure industry. But as we can see, poor decision after poor decision has led them to sell of their ride hardware to try and generate cash.

What do you guys think? Do you see the park lasting much longer? Becoming an events only space? Or something else? The Scenic Railway should remain in operating condition as per the conditions of the Grade II listed status, so whatever happens to the site should still have the coaster in place.
 
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Peet

Giga Poster
Yeah it's deeply concerning that they are the only UK park not to open in 2020 and again in 2021 (except for the fairground rides they brought in), making very feeble excuses that their rides are simply too old to operate with social distancing, which is of course absolute rubbish. So there is certainly something going on there that they are not telling us, they must have some motive not to run the permanent rides, while bringing in temporary fairground rides, and I don't think it can be anything good. I'm still concerned that the owners may want to redevelop the site so are not really trying to make it successful as an amusement park - if I remember correctly the sale of the land by the council only protected it from redevelopment for 10 years. Or you may be right that it ends up being an events venue with the Scenic Railway as an elaborate backdrop.

They do seem to be having considerable success as an events venue though, so I do think the overall business model is viable. I visited Margate this year and the town was buzzing, so there should be a market for an amusement park. And the park is actually kind of nice now, with trees and decent landscaping. Fingers crossed they actually reopen properly in 2022.
 

dj-fireball999

Mega Poster
If I remember correctly the sale of the land by the council only protected it from redevelopment for 10 years.

You’re right about the protection of the site. I believe it was 99 years from 2015, but now only 10 years from 2020.
 

nadroJ

CF Legend
I think the 650,000 2019 gate figure is slightly inflated due to the fact that it's free entry, if I'm not mistaken? Combine that with a hot summer and Dreamland being a cool/Instagrammable location to hang out, I'm not surprised that so many people chose to visit.

I'd love to see revenue comparisons across the year - it's always been a bit of a weird one, almost like a multi-functional events space as opposed to an actual amusement park. It never really seems to know what it wants to be. I think it's that lack of clarity/consistency that let's it down, which to be honest is inevitable when you're constantly shifting staff around.

Look at Screamland, their Halloween event. In 2015 it was truly excellent, a leader in UK scares. In 2018 it was abysmal then in 2019 it was good again but not as good as 2015. Each event felt wildly different from one another as opposed to a development of years previously.

I REALLY hope it stays, and we see it go from strength to strength. With rumours of COVID variants and whatever else I don't think we'll see appetite for international travel return in a huge ay for 2022, so that deman for exciting staycation options is there and Dreamland/Margate in general should really be capitalising on this.
 

Themeparknewbie01

Roller Poster
"The Vintage Caterpillar was also removed not long before the Air Race, however this was due to unsatisfactory work being done by Littleboys Vintage Restorations when they “restored” the ride and meant that it wasn’t viable to operate. It’s currently in storage along with the Brooklands Speedway (which Littleboys also “refurbished” to a poor standard)."

I'd be interested to know where you got this information from. I wan under the impression Littleboys had a very good reputation. It is quite a slanderous statement to make - either direct from the Park or to put on here without evidence.

Reading between the lines, I would think it more likely that Dreamland weren't willing to pay what was actually needed to restore these vintage rides to meet the demands of daily operations
 

Matt N

CF Legend
I’d be gutted if Dreamland did close, not least because the UK’s oldest coaster would be a huge loss from a historical standpoint. And it’s always sad when a park closes.

I’ll admit that it doesn’t sound good when the park’s rides are being removed and sold by stealth, though, and when the park is yet to reopen after COVID (or at least, yet to reopen with its pre-COVID ride lineup).

On a personal note, Dreamland closing would also make a past spite even worse for me, because I nearly got the chance to visit when we were holidaying down in Canterbury in October 2019, but we sort of “did a Griswold” (as I believe it’s often called around here) and tried to go on a day the park was closed. For that reason, I’ll admit I am keen to try and get down there at some stage, even though it is nearly 4 hours from me…
 

dj-fireball999

Mega Poster
"The Vintage Caterpillar was also removed not long before the Air Race, however this was due to unsatisfactory work being done by Littleboys Vintage Restorations when they “restored” the ride and meant that it wasn’t viable to operate. It’s currently in storage along with the Brooklands Speedway (which Littleboys also “refurbished” to a poor standard)."

I'd be interested to know where you got this information from. I wan under the impression Littleboys had a very good reputation. It is quite a slanderous statement to make - either direct from the Park or to put on here without evidence.

Reading between the lines, I would think it more likely that Dreamland weren't willing to pay what was actually needed to restore these vintage rides to meet the demands of daily operations
The Brooklands Speedway and the Caterpillar were the worst of the two rides that were “refurbished” by Littleboys. The others were already in relatively good condition and in working order before being touched by Littleboys (Gallopers - Hop Farm in Kent, Hurricane Jets - Ex-Carter’s Steam Fair, Speedway - Ex-Tom Mayhew etc).

Littleboys were good at making rides look good aesthetically by slapping paint onto rotten wood. Their mechanical work left a lot to be desired and their electrical work was even worse, hence why the Brooklands Speedway never worked properly and could only run with a maximum of 3 cars on the track before overloading the system.

The Caterpillar was more of a mechanical mess. During the first day of testing the ride at the park, the footrests began to break apart meaning that guests could’ve stuck their feet onto the arms and into the running wheels. Each footrest had a cap welded into the end of it which contained a thread so that it could be bolted to the wooden body of the car. The caps were put on, welded, and then had the welds ground off so they would fit into the slots in the car bodies. If you grind a weld off it’s not exactly going to hold the end cap in place, is it?

Other issues included the wheel axles. Each axle a). Wasn’t fitted correctly and b). Made out of the wrong specification material resulting in them being substandard and not able to sufficiently take the stresses that were to be imposed on them during normal operation. Dreamland machined all new axles to the correct specification at their own expense (each one being an individual fit due to the tubes they sat in being all slightly different sizes).

The canopy itself was attached by bungee straps by Littleboys that shredded themselves almost immediately. Also, the cables that operated the canopy that went from the ride centre to the paybox had D shackles on them that would catch and snag the main ride latticework, meaning that it wouldn’t function properly when Littleboys installed the ride at the park.

All of that, coupled with improperly treated wood that began to rot, and the fact that guests could stick their feet into the wheel spokes as the ride was running meant that the park chose not to run the ride from a health and safety standpoint. They were also concerned about the potential for trapped fingers with the canopy mechanism that sat directly behind each seat back.

In regards to Dreamland not wanting to put the money into getting it running, the ride was already bought and paid for, and Littleboys effectively wiped their hands of it once it was set up at the park. Dreamland spent the money on getting all of the footrests re-welded, spent the money on all new wheel axles and spent the man hours on machining them down individually so that they would fit.

Littleboys’ “lead engineer” is a top bloke as well…
 

dj-fireball999

Mega Poster
I think the 650,000 2019 gate figure is slightly inflated due to the fact that it's free entry, if I'm not mistaken? Combine that with a hot summer and Dreamland being a cool/Instagrammable location to hang out, I'm not surprised that so many people chose to visit.

I'd love to see revenue comparisons across the year - it's always been a bit of a weird one, almost like a multi-functional events space as opposed to an actual amusement park. It never really seems to know what it wants to be. I think it's that lack of clarity/consistency that let's it down, which to be honest is inevitable when you're constantly shifting staff around.

Look at Screamland, their Halloween event. In 2015 it was truly excellent, a leader in UK scares. In 2018 it was abysmal then in 2019 it was good again but not as good as 2015. Each event felt wildly different from one another as opposed to a development of years previously.

I REALLY hope it stays, and we see it go from strength to strength. With rumours of COVID variants and whatever else I don't think we'll see appetite for international travel return in a huge ay for 2022, so that deman for exciting staycation options is there and Dreamland/Margate in general should really be capitalising on this.
The reason Screamland 2015 was so good was because it was so wildly over budget! 2018 was a bit of an odd year, the original buildings that housed the mazes were unavailable that year, so the tents were brought in last minute. 2019 was a great year though, the right balance overall and some truly fantastic mazes, especially compared to the competition (I’m looking at you, Thorpe!)

You’re definitely right about the lack of clarity and identity that the park has. My continual gripe with that is the focus on events, whilst what should be the bread and butter of the business (the amusement park) wasn’t quite up to the standard it needed to be at to allow for the focus on events.
 

SilverArrow

Certified Ride Geek
Interesting. I've never heard a bad word about Littleboys until now. They seem to end up with all the old rides so hopefully they're having less issues with everything else that's been through them.
@dj-fireball999 is there anyone you'd recommend for this type of work who you think is better? I was wondering whether Dingles do refurbs but I'm not sure they do?

Dreamland-wise, everything I hear about this park now is negative and it's such a shame. So many weird decisions. I'm glad I used to try and make the effort to go every year. 2019 was my first and only visit to Screamland and it remains one of my favourite Halloween events ever. What a shame.
 

dj-fireball999

Mega Poster
Interesting. I've never heard a bad word about Littleboys until now. They seem to end up with all the old rides so hopefully they're having less issues with everything else that's been through them.
@dj-fireball999 is there anyone you'd recommend for this type of work who you think is better? I was wondering whether Dingles do refurbs but I'm not sure they do?

Dreamland-wise, everything I hear about this park now is negative and it's such a shame. So many weird decisions. I'm glad I used to try and make the effort to go every year. 2019 was my first and only visit to Screamland and it remains one of my favourite Halloween events ever. What a shame.
Literally any reputable companies that do mechanical engineering, electrical engineering or carpentry would be able to do a sufficient job. There’s not really that much to vintage rides that’s “specialist” so to speak, except for maybe the artwork. Even then, that sort of work can be contracted in, for example, Dreamland’s Waltzer cars were repainted by Joby Carter from Carter’s Steam fair, and Dreamland employed their own scenic artist for that kind of work.
 

SilverArrow

Certified Ride Geek
Literally any reputable companies that do mechanical engineering, electrical engineering or carpentry would be able to do a sufficient job. There’s not really that much to vintage rides that’s “specialist” so to speak, except for maybe the artwork. Even then, that sort of work can be contracted in, for example, Dreamland’s Waltzer cars were repainted by Joby Carter from Carter’s Steam fair, and Dreamland employed their own scenic artist for that kind of work.
Thanks for your insight! Carters are great, they've been doing wonders for the vintage ride scene recently!
 

Ian

From CoasterForce
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Social Media Team
“Dreamland’s future”. If I were to answer that as a direct question, my answer would be “more of the same.”

On the face of it, it seems that the live music side of things is more the focus and profitable part of the business. A few people wandering in off the beach for a couple of mediocre rides isn’t sustainable. With its complicated funding and ownership structure, it’s difficult to see any strong ride investments cropping up. It’ll be more of the same.

Could the whole “retro” theme be the elephant in the room? Although I’ve not visited for about four, maybe five, years, despite its stylish appearance, I don’t recall there being anything overly thrilling with repeat ride value. I love that it plays on its heritage and I like the theme, but does it lack broader appeal? Is the Scenic Railway an albatross around its neck? It occupies a lot of space and must costs a small fortune to run and maintain. Although I’d it wasn’t for the SR, the land would’ve been sold to developers years ago, so for that I’m grateful.

I see three ways the park can avoid “more of the same”. Firstly, find an enthusiastic operating company willing to invest and let it grow. Then, probably controversially, there’s ditching the Wayne Hemingway/retro/temporary theme to something generic. Lastly, let the music and live entertainment side flourish leaving the rides as an extra, almost an afterthought. That may eventually lead to further park investment.

I somehow think that last option is the what’s currently happening. So yeah, more of the same until the time is right.
 

Rob Coasters

Hyper Poster
On the face of it, it seems that the live music side of things is more the focus and profitable part of the business. A few people wandering in off the beach for a couple of mediocre rides isn’t sustainable. With its complicated funding and ownership structure, it’s difficult to see any strong ride investments cropping up. It’ll be more of the same.

Could the whole “retro” theme be the elephant in the room? Although I’ve not visited for about four, maybe five, years, despite its stylish appearance, I don’t recall there being anything overly thrilling with repeat ride value. I love that it plays on its heritage and I like the theme, but does it lack broader appeal?
I feel the same way. I visited in 2015 (pre-Scenic opening), 2016, 2017 and 2018 (before the flat package was ready) and on three of those visits I found myself wandering off to the beach after just a few rides because I got bored. On two of those visits I left, came back, left again, then came back again. Without that flat ride package the park's definitely not really having much of a "spark" to it and there isn't too much reason to stay put at the park for more than a couple hours.

It almost feels like a pier park to me where it just gives off "something to do, really" vibes. I'm sure that would've been WAY different when it had all those Zamps and the drop tower open but I can't tell because I wasn't there when they were open.

I think the park does need to rely a lot on shows, music and entertainment to stop people from deciding to wander off. One of those visits they had an excellent high-diving show AND a circus tent, and on another visit they had a Wall of Death which was both terrifying and a blast to watch. After those shows I got a sudden urge to reride stuff within the park.

I don't know if they'll be able to float off rides alone. It feels like the shows and entertainment are the things that pull people in and that should definitely be a primary focus to them.

I'd love for them to do better. I have hope for Dreamland but only time will tell how smart the owners are.

Oh and give them braver Scenic operators.
 

FistedColossus

Hyper Poster
It's a shame because they could flourish if they had time on their side. Margate is slowly becoming a lot more appealing than it has been in recent years. Not just for tourists but also a lot of the younger generation are moving away from the cities down to the coast.

The Libertines (best band of the 00's, don't @ me) have set up a hotel, bar and recording studio nearby so I've been there a fair few times lately. They're just across the road from Winter Gardens which has seen an increase in live music performances as well as Dreamland.
 

Peet

Giga Poster
Scenic Railway is reopening on 29th May for the first time since 2019:

Screenshot_20220330-190023_Instagram.jpg

I was genuinely unsure if it would ever reopen after the very odd excuses given for not operating in 2021 so this is a relief.

This will be the first time a 100+ year old roller coaster has ever operated in the UK (cue the usual debate about whether or not it's still the same roller coaster!).
 

Matt N

CF Legend
Excellent news! I'm glad Scenic will finally get to surpass 100 years old, and on a personal note, that means that me missing out on that cred in 2019 is now slightly less gutting, as there's now still the chance for me to go back and get on it in the future!
 

dj-fireball999

Mega Poster
On the face of it, it seems that the live music side of things is more the focus and profitable part of the business. A few people wandering in off the beach for a couple of mediocre rides isn’t sustainable. With its complicated funding and ownership structure, it’s difficult to see any strong ride investments cropping up. It’ll be more of the same.

Is the Scenic Railway an albatross around its neck? It occupies a lot of space and must costs a small fortune to run and maintain. Although I’d it wasn’t for the SR, the land would’ve been sold to developers years ago, so for that I’m grateful.

From what I understand, their events don't actually bring in much money. In fact, I'm pretty certain that the "Demon Dayz" event (their largest to date) with Gorillaz actually lost money. I wouldn't say that their funding and ownership structure is complicated anymore, since Sands Heritage now own the site as well as all of the attractions within, after being purchased from the council in 2019. Previously, the council owned the land and the vintage rides, Sands ran the place and owned the new Zamperla stuff. They were previously funded by Arrowgrass (who funded all of the new Zamperla rides) before they were shut down in 2019.

The Scenic doesn't really cost a huge amount to run. The only expensive part was the lift hill ropes, which should have lasted 5+ years (maybe longer? I can't quite remember but I believe the original ropes used to last 15+ years) but were being changed yearly if I remember correctly. Issues with the rope splicing and oil seeping from the centre of the ropes causing the trains to slip were big issues from 2015-2019. The trains aren't overly complicated and there aren't a huge amount of parts that need to be regularly changed on them, aside from brake pads. And they're just slabs of metal.
Scenic Railway is reopening on 29th May for the first time since 2019:

I'm very interested in seeing how it's going to be run and maintained, considering that nobody that looked after the ride since it was rebuilt is still employed by the park. Especially considering there are no specific 'manuals' for how to operate and maintain it, like there are with modern coasters. The setting for the rope clamp on the trains is something that's down to feel and experience, for example. And I think only one person knows how to set the ride up to run in two train operation.
 

Thekingin64

Strata Poster
Pro: Just booked a last minute trip to Margate for next weekend (Easter bank holiday).

Con: Dreamland is shut, and won't open till end of May! Surely Easter is prime trading for these seaside places, must be missing out on a lot of custom by doing this. I've booked this trip fully expecting everywhere to be packed, not still closed for winter...

Me in vent thread. Surely being closed over Easter won't help things for the park?
 
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