Thirteen's first drop
- Thread starter cp23
- Start date
andrus said:
As a few people have correctly pointed out above, they did not plan to put these trims on originally. The trims have come about due to the unexpected performance of the ride.
To elaborate a bit more, I would have to say that yes, this is a cock-up. Intamin have used these trains before and they should know their dynamic performance fairly well. See here:
http://www.rcdb.com/4337.htm?p=24458
They also employ the best in the business to give them the track profile and Stengel is normally pretty accurate. At least, he is rarely so far out that you need to send around half-full trains to achieve anything like the desired forces! So somebody, somewhere dropped a bollock.
The retractable trims have solved the problem for now but you shouldn't assume for a minute that they let the operators play around with their settings.
STC said:
The trims are actually automatically controlled based on the lap times of the previous few trains. There is no weigh bridge on the ride so they have no way of knowing the weight of the train. The trims help to control the environmental effects such as wet running and the temperature of the wheels etc. It is therefore quite possible that you will feel no trims on an early run on a cold day - I guess it keeps us all guessing!
caffeine_demon
Strata Poster
Brookes said:
I guess my main point is that I don't really see a bit of airtime as making it a non family coaster - toverland have troy - which has good load of airtime, and is still a good family coaster, in a good family park, and djurs sommerland have piraten - and djurs is also mainly a family park.
Nemesis Inferno
Strata Poster
These trims are the most annoying part of the ride...
I can certainly feel them when in the back row... Only right at the bottom of the drop rather than at the start or middle... Which gives a rather strange sensation tbh considering you're dropping fast, then slowing down as you pull out... It makes no sense...
I think maybe though one of the main reasons for the addition of them may be the lead up to the indoor section... They did have lots of issues with trains stopping on the lift there because of speed (or something to that effect if I recall correctly), but then that links in to slightly poor designing or just an unexpected issue only discovered during testing...
Well, that was a circular arguement right there... Horray for Thirteen's marmite-like state!
I can certainly feel them when in the back row... Only right at the bottom of the drop rather than at the start or middle... Which gives a rather strange sensation tbh considering you're dropping fast, then slowing down as you pull out... It makes no sense...
I think maybe though one of the main reasons for the addition of them may be the lead up to the indoor section... They did have lots of issues with trains stopping on the lift there because of speed (or something to that effect if I recall correctly), but then that links in to slightly poor designing or just an unexpected issue only discovered during testing...
Well, that was a circular arguement right there... Horray for Thirteen's marmite-like state!
Running the risk of repeating things...
When a ride is designed, the design can't take into account every possible element of the final construction. The computer model may be perfect, but perhaps the wheels are slightly harder on the train, or the lift hill motor runs at 103% of it's supposed power.
It's these kinds of variables which I assume make the ride change when it's actually a production model. As good as manufacturing is, it's not 100% accurate to the original ride designs.
When a ride is designed, the design can't take into account every possible element of the final construction. The computer model may be perfect, but perhaps the wheels are slightly harder on the train, or the lift hill motor runs at 103% of it's supposed power.
It's these kinds of variables which I assume make the ride change when it's actually a production model. As good as manufacturing is, it's not 100% accurate to the original ride designs.
UC, I must say, for somebody that is normally so happy to bandy about critisism, you really are being strangley protective of ride designers here.
If it makes you happier, I will gladly tone down the language. Maybe "dropping a bollock" was a bit unfair. That said, I think Intamin themselves would be more inclined to agree with my viewpoint than yours, as you seem to be suggesting this was just 'run-of-the-mill test and adjust'. Intamin were on site a long time after the ride opened. The retractable trim brakes would have no doubt required an additional support arrangement (don't forget they're not only heavy but they also pass a significant reaction force into the track whenever they brake a train) and it would not have been easy to get pneumatics (or whatever is required) out to this gravity section of track, not to mention all the control system implications and subsequent testing thereof. They would have been working through the night and I'm sure anyone from Intamin would be happy to admit that this was not within the expected scope of onsite commissioning adjustments.
Yes, other rides have got trims but this arrangement is clearly a bit special. It would be nice if you accepted that actually I am aware of the huge number of factors that affect dynamic performance, but you still shouldn't be that far out, particularly not if what marc said on the last page was true. I like that you always seem to use the word "enthusiasts" in the third person, like you are somehow on another level. And to be honest, maybe you are involved in the industry somehow. I wouldn't be foolish enough to make assumptions about what somebody does for a living.
If it makes you happier, I will gladly tone down the language. Maybe "dropping a bollock" was a bit unfair. That said, I think Intamin themselves would be more inclined to agree with my viewpoint than yours, as you seem to be suggesting this was just 'run-of-the-mill test and adjust'. Intamin were on site a long time after the ride opened. The retractable trim brakes would have no doubt required an additional support arrangement (don't forget they're not only heavy but they also pass a significant reaction force into the track whenever they brake a train) and it would not have been easy to get pneumatics (or whatever is required) out to this gravity section of track, not to mention all the control system implications and subsequent testing thereof. They would have been working through the night and I'm sure anyone from Intamin would be happy to admit that this was not within the expected scope of onsite commissioning adjustments.
Yes, other rides have got trims but this arrangement is clearly a bit special. It would be nice if you accepted that actually I am aware of the huge number of factors that affect dynamic performance, but you still shouldn't be that far out, particularly not if what marc said on the last page was true. I like that you always seem to use the word "enthusiasts" in the third person, like you are somehow on another level. And to be honest, maybe you are involved in the industry somehow. I wouldn't be foolish enough to make assumptions about what somebody does for a living.
I'll try to keep this brief because I didn't want to post again. I can tolerate arrogance (with some pity) and I don't mind people who are wrong and think they are right. However being told I'm false when I know I'm not is harder to take.
UC, you're clearly a key member of CF and I enjoy reading your posts but I am starting to think you should stick to picking on kids because that's where you do best. You wouldn't, for example, go head to head with loefet and for good reason (you'd be back at school) and, if he'll permit me to make the comparison, I fear you might be in the same place here.
Imagine to yourself that the very engineers who tested Th13teen were right here to offer their input. They might tell you that the problems with the ride's speed were far more than could reasonably be expected. Maybe they ran an analysis with ALL of the factors you talk about removed from the equation. For the benefit of others, that's drag, rolling friction, sound loses, vibrations etc. In this analysis, the train still wasn't found to go as fast as the actual train in site tests, suggesting there was definitely a fundamental build problem. Conversations might have been had with Intamin in which Intamin expressed their suprise at this problem and resolved to solve the issues by working well past opening day when their testing role would normally be over and supplying a solution at their cost. Do you accept that all this could actually be true and that I might actually not be, as you say "a liar"?
UC, you're clearly a key member of CF and I enjoy reading your posts but I am starting to think you should stick to picking on kids because that's where you do best. You wouldn't, for example, go head to head with loefet and for good reason (you'd be back at school) and, if he'll permit me to make the comparison, I fear you might be in the same place here.
Imagine to yourself that the very engineers who tested Th13teen were right here to offer their input. They might tell you that the problems with the ride's speed were far more than could reasonably be expected. Maybe they ran an analysis with ALL of the factors you talk about removed from the equation. For the benefit of others, that's drag, rolling friction, sound loses, vibrations etc. In this analysis, the train still wasn't found to go as fast as the actual train in site tests, suggesting there was definitely a fundamental build problem. Conversations might have been had with Intamin in which Intamin expressed their suprise at this problem and resolved to solve the issues by working well past opening day when their testing role would normally be over and supplying a solution at their cost. Do you accept that all this could actually be true and that I might actually not be, as you say "a liar"?
T0M
Hyper Poster
What interests me is, does the potential for such adjustments to be made get factored into the original construction cost (what Intamin charge Alton) or are Alton paying for these extra adjustments to be made?
Either way, the intent surely is to design and construct a roller coaster to perform as planned and designed, without making such adjustments afterwards. Any such adjustments that have to be made to an already constructed ride, must be seen as some sort of failure - no matter how common this is to new rides.
Frankly, for a new ride, it is Alton's biggest embarrassment for years from a reliability point of view.
Either way, the intent surely is to design and construct a roller coaster to perform as planned and designed, without making such adjustments afterwards. Any such adjustments that have to be made to an already constructed ride, must be seen as some sort of failure - no matter how common this is to new rides.
Frankly, for a new ride, it is Alton's biggest embarrassment for years from a reliability point of view.
The way I see it is that there are so many factors involved, you just can't take them all into account.
The actual construction technique, the parts used (remember, most of the ride won't actually be built by Intamin but by other subcontractors supplying the bits) and even the manufacturing quality of the steel will all differ in quality.
When you stick it all together, a ride which works perfectly on a computer model (even taking into account a percentage of variables) is just different in the real world.
It's not like this is unique to Intamin either, lots of other manufacturers also suffer. Look at Saw last year for a prime example. Silver Star with its trims added. I'll bet there's a huge list of rides which required modification after install. Simply because there just aren't enough ways to test every single potential variable when the ride goes into physical production.
Could Maverick of kept it's inversion if the trains had been manufactured to a different quality? Who knows (I certainly don't)?
Though, that's just me looking at it as a layman, but I do understand that in most things, the difference between a perfect paper design and real life model are often massively different things (even Top Gear got a car model changed by test driving it).
The actual construction technique, the parts used (remember, most of the ride won't actually be built by Intamin but by other subcontractors supplying the bits) and even the manufacturing quality of the steel will all differ in quality.
When you stick it all together, a ride which works perfectly on a computer model (even taking into account a percentage of variables) is just different in the real world.
It's not like this is unique to Intamin either, lots of other manufacturers also suffer. Look at Saw last year for a prime example. Silver Star with its trims added. I'll bet there's a huge list of rides which required modification after install. Simply because there just aren't enough ways to test every single potential variable when the ride goes into physical production.
Could Maverick of kept it's inversion if the trains had been manufactured to a different quality? Who knows (I certainly don't)?
Though, that's just me looking at it as a layman, but I do understand that in most things, the difference between a perfect paper design and real life model are often massively different things (even Top Gear got a car model changed by test driving it).
spicy
Giga Poster
Yeah trims are all part of the test and adjustment process, if the train is going faster than its meant to be going, its perfect for reducing the speed and I guess all modifications are taken into account in the original price quoted to Alton to begin with.
However I forgot about Mavericks inversion being removed, surely thats seen as a cock-up?
All the track has been fabricated, coaster constructed etc. They then have to remove the inversion, fabricate new track and re-assemble the coaster, that can't be expected in the test and adjustment process surely?
However I forgot about Mavericks inversion being removed, surely thats seen as a cock-up?
All the track has been fabricated, coaster constructed etc. They then have to remove the inversion, fabricate new track and re-assemble the coaster, that can't be expected in the test and adjustment process surely?
^No, that was a much bigger problem. But let's face it, would Intamin really have built the inversion if they knew that it was going to cause problems? It seems unlikely to me. This leaves the Maverick situation being an extreme case of UC's examples.
It wasn't forseen, and during testing they had to fix the problem. It's no different to adding the trims on Thirteen really...
It wasn't forseen, and during testing they had to fix the problem. It's no different to adding the trims on Thirteen really...
Pingu on drugs
Roller Poster
i was very disappointed when i went on the ride because the first section was very very slow....i actually couldnt feel anyforce at all....its good to know at least the ride wasnt always like this
T0M
Hyper Poster
I have ridden it in May, October and November of this year and in October it seemed very slow indeed, but in November it seemed much faster and more intense, it could be my imagination but it was nearly at the top of the second hill before the momentum stopped and the tyres had to bring it up the rest of the way.