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Should parks #RMCitorWreckit?

Jarrett

Most Obnoxious Member 2016
This is, by far, my most controversial opinion in the coaster community. On the Facebook groups I get so much heat for this so I thought I'd make a thread on here to see where we all stand on this.

Kind of a large part of my mark on the coaster community has been the use of the hashtag #RMCitorWreckit when discussing older wooden coasters, and what it means is just that. Outdated wooden roller coasters that fail to provide a ride as good as their modern descendents should either be RMCed or torn down, with little to no regard for history being taken into consideration. For me I draw this line as before the second golden age, so almost anything before 1972. Aside from a very elite select few (Wild One, Phoenix, Twister, Blue Streak), everything from this era should either be RMCed or torn down to make room for a modern wooden coaster. After this era it's about mixed, with some deserving the #RMCitorWreckit treatment and some not, lasting up until the advent of CAD in roller coaster design, in which I believe almost nothing needs it.

I've made some points with this belief that has gotten a lot of feathers ruffled in the past, including wishing all of Kennywood's wooden coasters defunct (RMC Thunderbolt, bulldoze Racer and Rabbit), wanting both Hersheypark's GCIs left alone in favor of RMC Comet, and wishing Compounce had RMCed Wildcat instead of restoring it with such a weak layout.

A couple of points I've made for this:
*Outdated rides take up space in parks that could be used to instead add newer, more modern, innovative additions instead. If we keep leaving outdated rides around in parks with finite space just because they're old, the park is on track to run out of space and therefore run out of options. No new additions is a guaranteed way to kill a park.
*Old for the sake of being old gets old. Rides that are old and still pack a punch deserve to be set apart.
*It's way easier on a park to maintain an RMC than it is to keep retracking a 100 year old wooden coaster
*The ride experience that an RMC offers, designed with CAD and precision machined with CNC equipment, is way more versatile than the pencil and paper with which old coasters were designed.
*If a park's goal is thrill rides, having an outdated ride that provides nothing of substance completely goes against that philosophy. The only place an outdated coaster belongs is in a historical context, at parks like Knoebels or the National Roller Coaster Museum. It's an amusement park, not a history lesson.
*Often people argue that forceless outdated rides make decent family coasters. These could easily be replaced with something like FireChaser or Wooden Warrior or another good, modern family coaster.

So share your thoughts on this, I'm interested to see what we all have to say!

FUN FACT: I actually received a death threat from someone in a Geauga Lake group once for posting #RMCitorWreckit on a video of Big Dipper coming down, though that was just me messing with conspiracy nutjobs and I didn't actually expect it to be RMCed obviously.
 

CanobieFan

Strata Poster
So anything older than 1972? In the US that leaves......
Lil' Dipper Camden ParkWoodSit DownOperating1961 - Kiddie coaster
Blue Streak Cedar PointWoodSit DownOperating5/23/1964 - Not worth RMC'ing
Swamp Fox Family Kingdom Amusement ParkWoodSit DownOperating1966 - Not worth RMC'ing
Cannon Ball Lake WinnepesaukahWoodSit DownOperating1967 - Not realistically going to happen (Money, reasoning)
Jack Rabbit KennywoodWoodSit DownOperating1920
Jack Rabbit SeabreezeWoodSit DownOperating1920 - Not realistically going to happen (Money, reasoning)
Roller Coaster LagoonWoodSit DownOperating1921
Thunderbolt KennywoodWoodSit DownOperating1924 - Don't touch this
Giant Dipper Santa Cruz Beach BoardwalkWoodSit DownOperating5/17/1924 - Not realistically going to happen (reasoning)
Thunderhawk Dorney Park & Wildwater KingdomWoodSit DownOperating5/18/1924 - Not worth RMC'ing
Giant Dipper Belmont ParkWoodSit DownOperating7/4/1925 - Not realistically going to happen (reasoning)
Racer KennywoodWoodSit DownOperating1927 - Not realistically going to happen (reasoning)
Wildcat Lake CompounceWoodSit DownOperating1927 (just got a full rebuild)
Cyclone Luna ParkWoodSit DownOperating6/26/1927
Kiddy Coaster Playland ParkWoodSit DownOperating1928 - Kiddie coaster
Dragon Coaster Playland ParkWoodSit DownOperating1929
Legend Arnolds ParkWoodSit DownOperating6/8/1930 - Not realistically going to happen (Money, reasoning)
Classic Coaster Washington State FairWoodSit DownOperating1935 - Not realistically going to happen (reasoning/ just got a full rebuild)
Yankee Cannonbal lCanobie Lake ParkWoodSit DownOperating1936 (personal favorite) - Not realistically going to happen (reasoning)
Blue Streak Conneaut Lake ParkWoodSit DownOperating1938 - Not realistically going to happen (lololol MONEY)
Rollo Coaster Idlewild & SoakZoneWoodSit DownOperating1938 - junior coaster
Cyclone Lakeside Amusement ParkWoodSit DownOperating5/17/1940 - Don't touch this
Thunderbolt Six Flags New EnglandWoodSit DownOperating1941 - Not realistically going to happen (Already RMC in park....)
Comet HersheyparkWoodSit DownOperating5/30/1946
Comet WaldameerWoodSit DownOperating1951 - junior coaster
Sea Dragon Columbus Zoo and AquariumWoodSit DownOperating1956 - junior coaster
Big Dipper Camden Park - Not worth RMC'ing

So..... You might think all these wood coasters take up so much room but if you look at the profiles, most are compact or out and back in layout... And at parks where room isn't an issue, or the lack of room is why the coaster is left.... Call me crazy, but I don't see SeaBreeze ripping out Jack Rabbit for anything, let alone a RMC.

realistically, to me.... of these coasters, pulled right from RCDB ( https://rcdb.com/r.htm?ot=2&st=93&pl=59&ty=2&page=1&order=8 ) what could get RMC'd.... Um..... Hersheypark Comet? Maybe?? If any of the Kenny...woods, Jack Rabbit? But why would they..... Rye Playland makes Dragon a Mega-Beast RMC? Yeah, I'm sure.....
 

TilenB

Strata Poster
No, that just sounds like tearing down a historically important building (well, one that's not falling apart, that is) to replace it with a shopping centre, just because that's new and modern. I mean it's just wrong...
I enjoy the old rides and parks, they simply have charm and soul (most of) the new amusement parks/rides don't have. Plus (and that's now just my personal opinion), the old wooden coasters just look way nicer than a mess of steel that are RMC's Iron Horse makeovers could ever look like. I'm sure they ride well, but they also look ugly as sin.
 

Edward M

Strata Poster
Hahahaha what?!? So everything old should be demolished? Why stop at wooden coasters? Demolish every steel coaster that isn't made after 1990? Why would they do that? Parks should demolish coasters you don't like despite their popularity? Do you know what money is? I mean you do understand that different people like different things. Just because you don't like Magic Kingdom doesn't mean it isn't the most visited theme park in the world. Some people can't take thrills or don't like them. There needs to be diversity in a lineup, and the GP likes a good old wooden coaster (having talked to GP friends, this is true). They're an integral part of a park, for me at least. Roller coasters are expensive, and parks can't just build tons of expensive rides constantly. They also can't get rid of rides that add to their capacity. Plus, what parks are so landlocked they need to get rid of every old ride? Grona Lund (one of the most landlocked parks ever) is opening a B&M Invert without getting rid of anything. Despite what we wish, parks aren't building any rides for coaster enthusiasts, and they aren't demolishing any for us either. There's plenty of rides that could and should get an RMC treatment, but this is just stupid. I think a discussion about potential RMC Iron Horses would be more interesting.
 

Ben

CF Legend
You haven't made an impact on the coaster enthusiast community with your hashtags, that would imply people give a ****.

I thought maybe this would be an interesting discussion not a torrent of crap. I was wrong.
 

Lofty

CF Legend
I feel your hashtag hasn't had the level of impact as Rosa Parks' objection to standing, as you would like to expect it has.


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tribar

Mega Poster
One has to wonder what sort of brain defect/drug would make someone believe that's a good idea. Should we get rid of everything (including people) that predates 1972?
 

balrog

Mega Poster
I think a discussion about potential RMC Iron Horses would be more interesting.
I kind of feel that this is what this discussion is supposed to be. Jarrett looks perfectly aware of the limitations of the "belief", and felt compelled to explicit them in the very first post of the topic.
This is just like the "every men are rapist" thing, it's dumb and antagonizes a lot of people who didn't ask for anything, but at the end of the day, it's not really a statement, just a way to get people to think/talk.

As I see that Jarrett has the most obnoxious member award, I'm starting to guess this is all just a game and my post is utterly useless. Unfortunately, I already wrote it, so I'm going to post it anyway.
 

IG9887

Roller Poster
I understand where your coming from, and I see why everyone wants RMCs galor, but heres a few things in general:
1. RMCs are hard to come by and there are less than 15 to date at parks worldwide. This is what partly makes them special, scarcity. If every park in the world had an RMC, would they be still great? Yes, but not so much as they are ATM since there so few of them in existence.
2. Just because its rough and forceless doesnt mean it isnt fun. Phoenix for example, is rough in some spots and yet is still considered an elite ride. Wildcat @ Hershey is the same(ish) and it gets heavily critizied IMO yet its still a good ride. Not saying its Phoenix level material or anything, just a comparison.
3. What do parks actually look at? Money. Money makes rides go round. If a old wooden coaster at a park has a consistent 30-60 min wait on moderate-heavy crowd days, why should the park get rid of it if it makes them money?
Now as far as the Comet goes:
It always has a 30-60 min wait Fri-Sun
It has some decent airtime and is somewhat rough
Based on what Ive said above: Why should it be RMCed?
 

Edward M

Strata Poster
I kind of feel that this is what this discussion is supposed to be. Jarrett looks perfectly aware of the limitations of the "belief", and felt compelled to explicit them in the very first post of the topic.
This is just like the "every men are rapist" thing, it's dumb and antagonizes a lot of people who didn't ask for anything, but at the end of the day, it's not really a statement, just a way to get people to think/talk.

As I see that Jarrett has the most obnoxious member award, I'm starting to guess this is all just a game and my post is utterly useless. Unfortunately, I already wrote it, so I'm going to post it anyway.

I can see how you read into it that way, but the post asks us to share our thoughts on his idea of RMC or Wreck it (I won't hashtag it). Obviously, everyone who posted disagreed with that. Jarrett was very explicit with his opinion that most older wooden coasters should be RMCed or destroyed. It was definitely a statement of his belief. If he meant for it to be a discussion on which coaster to RMC, he would have made that the topic instead of posting something completely different. This isn't some "game." This is a website where people share opinions, and he asked our opinions and thoughts. We gave them. I have a right to disagree with that opinion, and I did. Everyone else does as well.

Also the rapist comment was way too far, not a subject to be used when comparing whether or not we should close roller coasters.
 

Jarrett

Most Obnoxious Member 2016
Since this has turned into a mess of personal attacks (as it always does in the coaster community when someone has an unpopular opinion), thought I'd use something in the news to maybe illustrate where I'm coming from a bit more.

HenryFord_ModeloT1921.JPG

This is a Ford Model T. The first car to be available to the mass market due to it being manufactured on an assembly line, it was nothing short of revolutionary for its time. However, do you see them being driven around today? As innovative as it was for its time, it still had its issues. As the joke went, "The Ford Model T is the perfect family car, it even has a rattle for the baby." It still burned expensive gasoline.

elon-musk-model-3-e1486954419861.jpg

This is the Tesla Model 3, which Elon Musk (pictured, who I happen to think is the absolute bomb) just unveiled yesterday. This bad boy is capable of running over 200 miles on just a single charge but more importantly, it's Tesla's first mass market electric car, costing just $35,000 in comparison to their Model X and Model S, which are high end luxury cars. A comparatively large percentage of the market can afford this reliable car that doesn't burn expensive fossil fuels.

You need to drive somewhere, be it ten miles to work or five hundred miles on a credit run. Someone gives you the keys to one of each of these cars to use. Which one do you end up taking?

Now Model Ts are amazing, don't get me wrong. My parents (who are both industrial engineers that have worked on assembly lines before) think Henry Ford was the absolute bomb for coming up with this. However, in application, it simply doesn't work as well as more modern cars. Taking it to a classic car show or sticking it in a museum? That's the perfect use for it. And one day, someone will be doing the same with a Tesla Model 3 to show off the first mass market electric car that started it all. But in this day and age, the Tesla simply gets the job done better.

I will admit that if a ride is still drawing a crowd and people still like it, keep it. Don't fix it if it's not broken. But in terms of classic coasters that have zero ridership, that's when I think it should be put before respect for history. Either move it to a park like Knoebels where that's their business model and it'll work with that coaster or do something to it to fix it. I will admit I don't have ridership numbers so I cannot back this up with anything other than personal experience (and I am aware that if someone pulls numbers up for me it discredits what I say, I'm totally cool with that), but let's say you have an old, whitewashed, outdated wooden coaster that nobody rides and it's surrounded by cutting edge thrill machines. If it quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
 

tomahawk

Strata Poster
I'll take a Gran Torino and a Bel Air, while still enjoying a modern vehicle. But we can't appreciate technology and must destroy history. Gotcha. Pretty sure if you go to a park on a busy day, still gonna have queues.

But hey, it's just the unpopular opinion that is the problem. Not the delivery, tone, use of pound signs to exaggerate your point or anything that has caused you to be banned/kicked out/told to leave from several coaster communities.

Everyone else is the problem.

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Jarrett

Most Obnoxious Member 2016
I'll take a Gran Torino and a Bel Air, while still enjoying a modern vehicle. But we can't appreciate technology and must destroy history. Gotcha. Pretty sure if you go to a park on a busy day, still gonna have queues.

But hey, it's just the unpopular opinion that is the problem. Not the delivery, tone, use of pound signs to exaggerate your point or anything that has caused you to be banned/kicked out/told to leave from several coaster communities.

Everyone else is the problem.

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That's a valid point, you can appreciate old and new at the same time, plus drawing the line is very hard. I get that, that's a wonderful point. And you're correct, Hersheypark Comet, while I find it boring, still does get queues when Hollow is slammed between 11 and 2.

But I've not been out of line here at all. Yes last year I was a jerk, I did bad things, I got my arse kicked and I deserved it. I've since grown up. I'm done personally attacking people, calling them stupid, any of that. I'm here to talk coasters and make friends who like them as well and I intend to do that. Got a different opinion? Cool. Live a personal life I don't agree with? Fantastic. Listen to Nickelback? Crank it, I hope it's at full blast when you do. Enjoy shopping at Kroger? Have fun, their free cookies are amazing. Moving forward, the only thing someone can do that'll keep me from happily enjoying this hobby with someone is personally attacking me or someone I respect, in which case they're no longer welcome to share the hobby with me and I simply won't talk to them. Talking to our hostess for Hershey we all thought that the common interest should be bringing us together, not causing all this fighting. Since I left last year I've grown sick of all the childish behavior and I've decided I refused to be a part of it any longer. I want to be the mature enthusiast, not the drama queen. It's behavior like this that's made the social dynamic between all the Hersheypark locals such a hot mess and I want nothing to do with that at all. And just for the record, I've only been kicked out of one coaster club. I won't name names, but it's one that's notorious for banning members for silly reasons. I had a spat with a Coaster Crew member that got me on the rocks with them a bit, but I was never kicked out and she and I have since patched things up and are good friends again.

Just wanted to defend myself here once but I won't be discussing this any longer. Message me if you have an issue with what was said and I'll gladly explain/discuss it, but I'm not going to be that guy that derails a thread like this.

Back on topic, while I'm getting that very few people here necessarily agree with the point, I have seen others in the Facebook groups agree with me. For some reason, most of them have a taste in coasters that's heavily characterized by a love for positive G Force.
 

balrog

Mega Poster
Also the rapist comment was way too far, not a subject to be used when comparing whether or not we should close roller coasters.
Wow, I'm just refering to a famous saying that about everyone heard at least one. Not trying to compare the old coaster situation with sexual abuse.

Aniway, some seem way more revolted by his idea than anyone should with a regular level of sanity, calling brain defect and all. If that's not playing along, then I've never seen anyone toying with each other. This all thread looks purposely exagerated, and the guy has a freaking Obnoxious award ffs !

Personally, I believr any coaster that might give a bad rep to coaster should come with a disclaimer. I've seen to many people believe they hate coasters because they started by riding some rough, painful pile of garbage like Temple du Peril or an SLC.
I've seen to many people come out of a park with a headache because of a rattling machine, ever to believe amusement park is not their jam.
If a boring old coaster don't do anything, it's fine, kou can keep it. If a coaster is potentially pain or headache inducing, wreck it or put a big bright warning sign at the entrance. Really bad rides make parks loose their customers, and not just a few. They are just bad for the industry, period.
 

DelPiero

Strata Poster
I haven't read the topic as it wasn't the easiest read and I've only had 1 cup of coffee, so my response may not be on the subject matter totally.

I love RMCs, I want more in Europe, the US have loads, they can wait for 5 years once Hurler and Mean Streak are done.
I'm all for Iron Horsing old woodies which are at the end of their thrill life, but I wouldn't expect any which still command a sizeable queue to be part of that group. Things like Gwazi or Wildcat, sure, go for it, they are/were rough and had short (comparative) lines. Comet at Hershey, no chance, the queue that builds is massive and while rough, is clearly popular.

Ultimately it's down to the park's assessment of any existing woodie and if it's ripe for rejuvenation, or if they have space for a ground up RMC, but every park in Europe needs to seriously consider them when deciding to install a new coaster, they clearly are the top dog right now.
 

Hixee

Flojector
Staff member
Administrator
Moderator
Social Media Team
This is a Ford Model T. The first car to be available to the mass market due to it being manufactured on an assembly line, it was nothing short of revolutionary for its time. However, do you see them being driven around today? As innovative as it was for its time, it still had its issues. As the joke went, "The Ford Model T is the perfect family car, it even has a rattle for the baby." It still burned expensive gasoline.
This is the Tesla Model 3, which Elon Musk (pictured, who I happen to think is the absolute bomb) just unveiled yesterday. This bad boy is capable of running over 200 miles on just a single charge but more importantly, it's Tesla's first mass market electric car, costing just $35,000 in comparison to their Model X and Model S, which are high end luxury cars. A comparatively large percentage of the market can afford this reliable car that doesn't burn expensive fossil fuels.
Except, your car analogy isn't terribly well thought out, in my opinion. I'll give roller coasters a 30 year delay compared to cars in the early days, with that head start reducing now (to reflect the fact that car technology was advanced over coasters for most of the early part of last century).

The Model T came out in 1908, used primative technology (relatively, it was cutting edge at the time) and by modern standards was not a good car. The car is over 100 years old, and by virtue of history, many of them have been lost over time. Some do remain, and they're important collector's items. Now let's look at the coasters that fall into this category, say anything built before about 1930. It's not the low quality woodies like Hurler, Coaster Express, Comet, Blue Streak that fall into this category, but the older "classic" roller coasters that are preserved as a record of history, as well as exciting attractions. I mean, we've got digital copies of the Declaration of Independence, and copies of the Liberty Bell - maybe we should just destroy the originals too.

So what's more comparable to your 1972 cut off? The Mustangs, Corvettes, BMWs (5-series), VWs (Golf), lots of classic cars that many people have owned, loved and continue to look after and turn heads. However, they're the rare breed of good cars from that era. There are bucket loads of utter crap built then, that if still running could (and probably should) be traded in for a Tesla. These are the coasters that should be considered for the RMC treatment.

I know what you're saying - all of those relatively uninteresting woodies from the 70s-00s could be RMC'd effectively - and I don't think anyone is denying that, it's the brash attitude of "it's old therefore it should be RMC'd" and the hashtag that feels like an awfully naive, fanboy type comment to make. It disregards any sort of historical significance that a coaster might have (either to the industry, or to the park itself), and doesn't acknowledge any of the other practical factors that are involved.
 

HeartlineCoaster

Theme Park Superhero
Wasn't the biggest issue with that analogy asking which car we'd rather have for a 500 mile cred run when the range is only 200 miles?
 
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