Is there a difference in cost between manufacturers?

[_koppen]

I've merged some posts to avoid derailing the other discussion. Unfortnuatley, they've now been sorted by post date, so Chris' original post has gone missing. I can't work out how to rearrange them at the moment, so for the time being here's the content of Chris' message:

So, I've always been under the impression that B&M are a premium manufacturer and for that premium you pay a price. Gerst are slightly cheaper and there are differences in costs between say Vekoma / Gerst and B&M / Intamin.

Koppen raised a good point saying

Bullcrap.

Just like everything else in life the cost depends on what you want. The reason B&M's are expensive is partly because the of their sheer size, but more importantly because of their big heavy train construction and making sure the track is suitable for them without falling apart.

It has nothing to do with the brand of the coaster itself. Go ask Gerstlauer for something similar to Shambhala,with matching trains, and you will see how 'cheap' they are.

What do you think?

And now on to _koppen's post:

Thanks, Hixee.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

No, there are huge variations in costs between manufacturers building coasters.

Bullcrap.

Just like everything else in life the cost depends on what you want. The reason B&M's are expensive is partly because the of their sheer size, but more importantly because of their big heavy train construction and making sure the track is suitable for them without falling apart.

It has nothing to do with the brand of the coaster itself. Go ask Gerstlauer for something similar to Shambhala,with matching trains, and you will see how 'cheap' they are.

 

[Chris Brown]

Re: Atractiepark Slagharen to Build a New Coaster in 2017

No, there are huge variations in costs between manufacturers building coasters.

Bullcrap.

Just like everything else in life the cost depends on what you want. The reason B&M's are expensive is partly because the of their sheer size, but more importantly because of their big heavy train construction and making sure the track is suitable for them without falling apart.

It has nothing to do with the brand of the coaster itself. Go ask Gerstlauer for something similar to Shambhala,with matching trains, and you will see how 'cheap' they are.

Oh christ. With your logic there would be no competition in the industry as B&M would be the only manufacturer! They can provide family suspended coasters the same as Vekomas SFC and can provide small compact coasters like Daemonen at Tivoli. Oh wait, only two of these examples exist? Why is that? BECAUSE OTHER COMPANIES CAN BUILD THE SAME THING FOR LESS MONEY. Why do you think B&M have only sold 1 suspended family coaster?

Actually **** it, im making a poll on here and we'll see what other CFer's think. Your 'bullcrap' comment has really bugged me.

 

[Chris Brown]

Is there cost variation between manufacturers?

This post is out of order now (lazy topic merging on my part), please see the first post for an attempted fix! Hixee

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

So, I've always been under the impression that B&M are a premium manufacturer and for that premium you pay a price. Gerst are slightly cheaper and there are differences in costs between say Vekoma / Gerst and B&M / Intamin.

Koppen raised a good point saying

Bullcrap.

Just like everything else in life the cost depends on what you want. The reason B&M's are expensive is partly because the of their sheer size, but more importantly because of their big heavy train construction and making sure the track is suitable for them without falling apart.

It has nothing to do with the brand of the coaster itself. Go ask Gerstlauer for something similar to Shambhala,with matching trains, and you will see how 'cheap' they are.

What do you think?

 

[CrashCoaster]

Re: Is there cost variation between manufacturers?

Yes there is, and I think Gerstlauers track type uses less steel than B&Ms, but keeps the strength in the track, making it cheaper. same with Intamin. However, if they tried to mimic Giovanola or B&M, it may cost more. But then again, Mack uses a similar track type to Gerstlauer and their coasters are overly expensive, so I'm not sure...

 

[Smithy]

Re: Is there cost variation between manufacturers?

I think Koppen has a very valid point, but I still do think there's a premium with B&M and to a lesser extent Intamin where you're paying for the name, and what that brings with regards to reliability, throughput and the various other features that will guide a parks choice.

I don't think it's a hugely inflated premium though and Koppen's point is probably what dictates 95% of the cost.

 

[Lofty]

Re: Atractiepark Slagharen to Build a New Coaster in 2017

Yeah, that's ****. Different manufacturers cost more than others based on the same track length etc., _Koppen and simply stating otherwise is completely false.

 

[Lofty]

Re: Is there cost variation between manufacturers?

As stated in the topic, it's not even a 'debatable discussion', it's a fact that some manufacturers cost more than others based on coaster types that are similar products of each manufacturer.

A good example of that would be the price of Family Inverted Coaster by B&M in Happy Valley offset against the price of say Kvasten? That would be interesting to see.

 

[mouse]

Re: Is there cost variation between manufacturers?

If Gerstlauer weren't cheaper than the alternatives, why would any park buy them?

 

[_koppen]

Re: Atractiepark Slagharen to Build a New Coaster in 2017

Oh christ. With your logic there would be no competition in the industry as B&M would be the only manufacturer!

That is just stupid. Just really, really stupid.

B&M are specialized in their own ride systems and it works very well for them. As I said earlier what keeps the price up is the way they build their rides. There is no magic here, other manufacturers could not do it for less money.

They can provide family suspended coasters the same as Vekomas SFC and can provide small compact coasters like Daemonen at Tivoli. Oh wait, only two of these examples exist? Why is that?

That is because no other park have wanted to buy coasters like that, simple as that.

BECAUSE OTHER COMPANIES CAN BUILD THE SAME THING FOR LESS MONEY. Why do you think B&M have only sold 1 suspended family coaster?

No they can not. The coaster at Happy Valley should be very similar in pricing to the Vekoma version. Unless you can prove otherwise?

Yes we can discuss Daemonen as well, please provide facts that shows that Gerstlauer or Mack could build a smilier size coaster with floorless 4-across trains for 24 persons for less money. You can't do that? Oh how shocked I am, seriously.

You are seriously trying to say that parks are ready to pay big time to get the B&M brand, that is simply not true. They have the same profit margins as the other ones. What keeps the price up is the features of the rides.

Actually **** it, im making a poll on here and we'll see what other CFer's think.

Yes you do that, I have simply forgotten that all roller coaster enthusiasts are all theme parks ceo's and self-titled experts. This could be funny.

Your 'bullcrap' comment has really bugged me.

Yeah, sorry if I made you cry. Do you think you can survive?

Different manufacturers cost more than others based on the same track

Not if the tracks are equivalent. As I said B&M track is manufactured to handle trains twice as heavy as the trains other companies are using. It is also designed to use less columns than other types of track. That is the difference in price, nothing else.

The track for the Happy Valley invert should be very similar to the Vekoma one in terms of pricing for the actual track etc..

 

[Chris Brown]

Re: Atractiepark Slagharen to Build a New Coaster in 2017

I must ask koppen, if you disregard other enthusiasts opinions what makes yours so correct?

I love how you've ended your post by saying all the reasons why B&M are more expensive than other manufacturers, you know, that thing you said was bullcrap at the start?

I'd love to put more effort into this argument, I really would, but I'm off out in a bit so I won't.

 

[Lofty]

Re: Atractiepark Slagharen to Build a New Coaster in 2017

They have the same profit margins as the other ones. What keeps the price up is the features of the rides.

Actually, yet again, you're incorrect. Parks all have different profit margins and if you think otherwise you're actually deluded. If you meant coaster companies all have different profit margins, that's also false - each product of each company will earn a different amount of profit from each other, there really is absolutely no such thing as a blanket profit margin for any products that differ so much from one another.

Different manufacturers cost more than others based on the same track

Not if the tracks are equivalent. As I said B&M track is manufactured to handle trains twice as heavy as the trains other companies are using. It is also designed to use less columns than other types of track. That is the difference in price, nothing else.

The track for the Happy Valley invert should be very similar to the Vekoma one in terms of pricing for the actual track etc..

'Should', in accordance to whom? The fact is, B&M's hardware, their trains, their braking systems, their lift motors, everything would be so different from the similar Vekoma products. B&M coasters cost more because you're paying a premium for a higher quality product that has greater wear and tear than other coasters of a similar size...

 

[_koppen]

Re: Atractiepark Slagharen to Build a New Coaster in 2017

I must ask koppen, if you disregard other enthusiasts opinions what makes yours so correct?

Always going by the fact is always key. Enthusiasts have a strong tendency to throw out whatever they feel like as a given fact and then feel insanely offended when questioned.

I love how you've ended your post by saying all the reasons why B&M are more expensive than other manufacturers, you know, that thing you said was bullcrap at the start?

Let's remember the original argument, shall we. The original argument was that some manufacturers ex Gerstlauer is a cheaper manufacturer compared to some other manufacturers ex B&M.

This is what is completely false. A correct statement would be that some manufacturers ex Gerstlauer provides cheaper ride systems than other manufacturers ex B&M.
I think these sentences is saying enough without me having to write anything more.

I'd love to put more effort into this argument, I really would, but I'm off out in a bit so I won't.

Seriously, don't worry about it.

Actually, yet again, you're incorrect. Parks all have different profit margins and if you think otherwise you're actually deluded. If you meant coaster companies all have different profit margins, that's also false - each product of each company will earn a different amount of profit from each other, there really is absolutely no such thing as a blanket profit margin for any products that differ so much from one another.

I was talking about coaster manufacturers. Surely different companies uses different types of calculations and different types of organizations, but they are roughly in the same ballpark. Gerstlauer is no cheap company who pushes the price down by using cheap components in the same way that B&M is no Rolls-Royce company that only uses components of pure gold.

They both have to fight hard to secure their contracts and they both have to push the price down as much as they can for their ride systems in order to keep securing new contracts.

B&M coasters cost more because you're paying a premium for a higher quality product that has greater wear and tear than other coasters of a similar size...

No they don't, that's just an old enthusiast myth.

B&M uses what hardware is necessary to support their ride systems. Same way that Gerstlauer does. B&M has a very high capacity system which naturally puts more stress on the components than what a Eurofighter would. If you compare the level of stress that each ride system experiences then you will find out that they are both using premium components.

It is also a myth that B&M rides would experience less wear and tear than something from other manufacturers*. B&M requires lot's of maintenance, what B&M is known for on the other hand is their exceptional reliability/lack of downtime. Not the same thing.

* Given comparable wear and tear levels of the rides (read not Intamin type of rides).

 

[Chris Brown]

Re: Atractiepark Slagharen to Build a New Coaster in 2017

Koppen, all this effort going into these posts and you still haven't stated a single fact? Fact is, B&M have sold one family suspended coaster whilst vekoma have sold 6 not counting any other models than the 395m. Why is this if they both cost the same amount? Why would parks avoid using B&M who have the best safety record in the industry and go for vekoma instead? The thing is it's all well and good saying B&Ms are more expensive because they have heavier trains and better systems but other companies can produce rides without this, this makes them cheaper! Hence why Gerst are considered cheaper, they've seen you don't need to go overboard with tech like B&M do and they therefore sell rides to parks with smaller budgets as they produce rides cheaper than B&M.

Therefore the family coaster counteracts your argument about the size of the ride determining the cost. You also clearly state in your last post that Gerst produce cheaper ride systems so what are you arguing about? Cheaper ride systems = cheaper rides = a cheaper option for the park = Gerst is a cheaper option. Your if Gerst built a shambahla comment is complete bollocks as that has not happened so it can't be predicted or claimed to be true or false!

 

[Lofty]

Re: Atractiepark Slagharen to Build a New Coaster in 2017

_Koppen - referring to me as an 'enthusiast' as a form of condescension isn't exactly factual. Having some working knowledge of this industry goes a long way and allows me to post such facts and not just my 'opinion'.

Fact is - even in my line of work, different companies cost different for the same type of product. It happens all around the world and happens with coasted and manufactures, too.

Until you can supply solid evidence of something different, I'm going to keep to my informed knowledge.

 

[Hixee]

Of course there's a cost difference...

B&M is fundamentally more expensive hardware. The trains and track systems are bigger, the designs and track manufacturing are better (smoother, better shaping etc), and they're a more refined product. Gerstlauer (for example), simply aren't.

I'm almost certain that if you asked Gerstlauer to design a 325 ft hyper, they could and it would be very expensive. However I'm also certain that the B&M equivalent would still cost more, as it's a higher tier of product.

That's not to say there's anything wrong with Gerstlauer though, but they're definitely the premium tier of coasters, rather than the luxury that B&M are (for contrast, I'd put something like the new Vekomas in the middle tier, and Pinfari down at the cheap end).

 

[gavin]

I see Koppen's point about the cost being the same if the product was ultimately the same, but they're not.

Without knowing the figures, I'd hazard a guess that the inverted side of Battlestar Galactica was very close in price to a B&M invert since they're quite similar in design, track width etc.

However, many parks who get a generic SLC do so because they're cheaper than the B&M equivalent for the same marketing potential.

So while saying, "If they were identical, they would cost the same" is true, it's also pretty much a non-argument since they're not offering the same product; they're offering a cheaper equivalent.

 

[_koppen]

Re: Atractiepark Slagharen to Build a New Coaster in 2017

Koppen, all this effort going into these posts and you still haven't stated a single fact? Fact is, B&M have sold one family suspended coaster whilst vekoma have sold 6 not counting any other models than the 395m.

It's actually pretty hard for a company to break into existing market that is new for the company, just ask anybody with experience in this field.

I'm sure Skoda could build an equivalent to an Audi R8 with the same sex appeal, but that dosen't mean that people would actually buy them. The same way BMW just can't start building pickup trucks. People who actually uses pickup trucks just wouldn't run out and buy them.

If the ride was so ridiculously expensive then Happy Valley would not have bought it. Just because they have money to spend doesn't mean they are stupid.

Also let's remember that the B&M in Shanghai have only existed since 2014. Will we see more of them in the future? probably some, but not many. China must be very close to start pumping out their own domestic SFC's and I think parks in Europe and US rather go and check out the existing Vekoma's in Europe or US before getting on a flight to China.

Also parks who are interested in an SFC is probably more likely to already have some relationship with Vekoma rather than B&M.
It's gonna be hard for B&M to start convincing people to buy their family coasters when the market is already full of other manufacturers doing just that, and have done so for many years, and who also have a much broader network with the parks who are interested in family rides.

Why is this if they both cost the same amount? Why would parks avoid using B&M who have the best safety record in the industry and go for vekoma instead?

I wan't you to take a long real hard look at that B&M ride in Shanghai. Afterwards tell me what you think would be so much more expensive with it as opposed to the Vekoma version. What really drives the price up to that premium level you are talking about?

The thing is it's all well and good saying B&Ms are more expensive because they have heavier trains and better systems but other companies can produce rides without this, this makes them cheaper! Hence why Gerst are considered cheaper, they've seen you don't need to go overboard with tech like B&M do and they therefore sell rides to parks with smaller budgets as they produce rides cheaper than B&M.

Cheaper ride systems = cheaper rides = a cheaper option for the park = Gerst is a cheaper option.

*sigh* As I said multiple times, you can't say that Gerstlauer is cheaper. They produce less expensive ride system, it's not the same thing. If you buy a B&M invert you will get a top quality ride, if you buy a Eurofighter you will get a top quality ride. There is nothing cheap with either of them. Gerstlauer is not a cheaper ride manufacturer.

Fact is - even in my line of work, different companies cost different for the same type of product. It happens all around the world and happens with coasted and manufactures, too.

Yes, and that is also reflected in the product. Well not if were talking about rather cheap everyday products, but if we get up a bit in price points.

There are extremley few companies in the world like ex Apple that can sell products more expensively than their competition without actually having more expensive products.

However, many parks who get a generic SLC do so because they're cheaper than the B&M equivalent for the same marketing potential. So while saying, "If they were identical, they would cost the same" is true, it's also pretty much a non-argument since they're not offering the same product; they're offering a cheaper equivalent.

This part is what I'm not agreeing with, you can't say that they are offering a cheaper equivalent. The rides are not remotely equivalent and the difference between the rides is also the difference in price. Nothing about one of them being cheaper than the other.

From a marketing potential yeah probably, but that's another discussion.

but I still do think there's a premium with B&M and to a lesser extent Intamin where you're paying for the name

If we go back a while then I think this was probably the case, but nowadays the competition to sell new bigger rides have become so much more competitive from all the manufacturers that they probably have to get in the line and be as competitive as they can in terms of pricing.

 

[gavin]

This part is what I'm not agreeing with, you can't say that they are offering a cheaper equivalent. The rides are not remotely equivalent and the difference between the rides is also the difference in price. Nothing about one of them being cheaper than the other.

From a marketing potential yeah probably, but that's another discussion.

I was speaking from a marketing perspective. In that case, the SLC absolutely is Vekoma's "equivalent" to a B&M invert. If they were asked for something more substantial, like they were with Battlestar, then sure that would put them in a similar price bracket to B&M, but the SLC absolutely serves the same purpose as a B&M invert for smaller parks that can't/won't pay for one; therefore, it's an "equivalent".

If the ride was so ridiculously expensive then Happy Valley would not have bought it. Just because they have money to spend doesn't mean they are stupid (...) Also parks who are interested in an SFC is probably more likely to already have some relationship with Vekoma rather than B&M.
It's gonna be hard for B&M to start convincing people to buy their family coasters when the market is already full of other manufacturers doing just that, and have done so for many years, and who also have a much broader network with the parks who are interested in family rides.

The Happy Valley B&M SFC is a unique case though. Neither OCT or Vekoma are going to say so publicy, but everything points towards them having some kind of falling out, likely due to OCT allowing/selling Golden Horse access to Vekoma's rides, which they then ripped off, and/or Vekoma likely being responsible for getting Golden Horse kicked out of IAAPA. Again, there's no hard evidence of this, but Golden Horse would have had to have had access to Vekoma's mine trains and "Kumali" SLCs to have copied them so exactly - which they've now flooded the market with - and OCT were the ones who originally owned those original rides in China. Suddenly they switch from Vekoma to a whole new coaster type from B&M? Doubtful. More likely they wanted an SFC, Vekoma refused it - or they didn't approach them due to the poor relationship they now have - so they went to B&M to build one.

Also let's remember that the B&M in Shanghai have only existed since 2014. Will we see more of them in the future? probably some, but not many.

Well, at the moment there are at least 3 wing coasters, 2 dive machines and a hyper coming for 2017. Considering B&M don't usually have more than a handful of rides opening in any one year, for at least 6 to be under construction in the same country is pretty big.

Edit - Just realised that you were talking specifically about the SFC model - see the bottom of the post.

On top of that, Golden Horse have been offering a Dive Machine model for a few years, funnily enough since a couple of years after OCT bought one for Shanghai's Happy Valley. Admitedly this is just on paper, with no sign of a prototype, yet OCT have gone back to B&M for 2 of them.

China must be very close to start pumping out their own domestic SFC's

Definitely, and the layout and manufacturer of that ride will kind of confirm my Vekoma/OCT theory. If Golden Horse come out with a model with the B&M layout and hardware, then it will become even clearer that OCT are giving them access to coasters. Vekoma have, so far in China, only put in a couple of Orkanen clones at a couple of Fantawild parks. My bet is that you won't see another B&M SFC in an OCT park.

 

[Chris Brown]

See once again Mr 'I only base my opinion on facts' has provided zero facts!

I'm glad you bought cars into the argument, another thing that I follow closely and have an enthusiasm for! See your skoda R8 argument is a very poor one, skoda and Audi are both owned by VW group so would be kinda dumb for them to bring a car and put it in direct competition with one of its flagship models (why would they make a cheaper R8 when the R8 features in most of audi's promotional material). I'll let you off that example and introduce another one, despite being over priced the Audi TT has been one of the best selling sports coupe since its introduction in 1998, so much so the style and shape has remained extremely similar through 3 generations. Then along comes little old Peugeot, a manufacturer that has made cheap family cars for the last 30 or so years, with the RCZ. A direct competitor to the TT, Z4, Z3, scirocco, MX5 the RCZ was destined to fail. It didn't. They produced a very similar car to the TT, exactly the same style, the same performance, but with slightly lower build quality ( as you'd expect when comparing a French car to a German car) it was therefore much cheaper, you weren't paying for Audi precision engineering so the car retailed around £9000 cheaper. It outsold the TT that year... There are literally so many examples of this in every industry! Another example, the BMW I8, BMW's first attempt at a full on exotic sports car and they nailed it, amidst huge competition from Audi, Ferrari, Maserati, Lamborghini, noble, Bentley, Alfa, Jaguar, Lotus and many more the I8 firmly established itself as a strong competitor even with average reviews and moans about the supposed 200mpg figure.

Happy valley purchased it from B&M because for some reason vekoma refused, not sure why but they did. Vekoma was obviously the desired choice hence the layout.

Also I think the B&M market in China has overtaken the western market? Either that or it's very close. Refer to Gavin's post.

I would take a real long look but it's really not necessary, the fact it's built by B&M is the reason it costs more. It's the premium everyone is referring to in this argument.

As for your Apple theory what planet do you live on? We live in a predominantly capitalist society controlled by major corporations, there are examples of brands producing poor products but relying on monopolies, consumerism, advertising, fashion culture and reputation everywhere. Literally everything ever has these companies! Starbucks, Audi, Raulph Lauren, Sony, Microsoft, beats, MAC, Nivea, any perfume, Fred Perry, McDonald's, the majority of chain restaurants. All examples of established brands that will always be established because of reputation and the monopolies they own. There are companies that do the same things, some even better, for much cheaper. You pay for the brand.

 

[Chris Brown]

*sigh* As I said multiple times, you can't say that Gerstlauer is cheaper. They produce less expensive ride system, it's not the same thing. If you buy a B&M invert you will get a top quality ride, if you buy a Eurofighter you will get a top quality ride. There is nothing cheap with either of them. Gerstlauer is not a cheaper ride manufacturer.

*Double sigh* this whole argument came from you being a dick and calling out Ireeb in a pretty rude manor after he rightly said

'Yeah, I think Gerstlauer is a pretty cheap manufacturer compared to B&M or Intamin. That's why I expected it to be a Gerstlauer, they make inexpensive Rides, suitable for small and medium sized parks.'

This is a perfectly legitimate opinion. Slagharen is rightly labelled as a small to medium sized park based on the past investments and the current ride line up. To conclude that a small / medium sized park would be investing in a small to medium sized coaster EG a Gerst is the logical thing to do!