Come on then, America, what happened?
- Thread starter Ian
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caffeine_demon
Strata Poster
didn't you hear she'd changed her name? 
TilenB
Strata Poster
It took me a while to get this 'joke', before I remembered native English speakers mispronounce most of the Slavic names...
mouse
Giga Poster
By his plans to control terrorism, do you mean his ban on Muslims entering the country? Generalising and victimising all Muslims because of a crazy group of people, pretty sure thats what the terrorists want. Other than that there is no plan, other than 'bomb the **** out of them' there has been no strategic planning by trump. As for the wall, well it's just not gonna happen. He's already decided that some of it will have to be fencing...
Appreciate your point about not wanting Clinton in the Whitehouse though, she was a terrible candidate. She represented everything wrong with the establishment (although trump is also the establishment). The left is responsible for the outcome of this election as the Democrats chose an unsuitable candidate. I honesty believe a true progressive such as Bernie would've beaten Trump, as he would represent change. Clinton however represented more of the same, which voters clearly don't want.
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SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
I appreciate your bravery in posting in this very anti-Trump environment and you've made your opinion known politely. Good for you! Thanks. And I don't expect you to read this, or respond, because it's not really aimed at you literally anyway. It's just on this issue.
But I just wanted to say that the great thing about pro-choice is that it suits everyone. Don't agree with abortion? No problem! Don't have one. I know it's not that simple in the mind of someone who genuinely believes that termination of a foetus is murder, but I don't believe a contemporary society can exist without being pro-choice. The welfare of women is something Trump has demonstrated he couldn't give a flying **** about - and his stance on abortion only confirms that. The rest of the developed world laughs at the USA - a country that unlike most other developed countries was secular by birth, but lets religion messily get involved only when that involvement means making some people, usually the less fortunate, lives even worse. Religion shouldn't be involved with any politics, but especially not in the USA.
I appreciate that people don't like or trust the Clintons, but at least Hillary was thinking forward and not backwards. Trump will take the USA backwards. Backwards in the mind of the rest of the world, backwards in human rights, backwards in green energy, backwards in social stigma. Backwards.
Heard a great quote the other day. "Not everyone who voted for Trump is a racist bigot, but all the racist bigots voted for Trump." And now, all those racist, sexist, homophobic, hyper-religious, anti-human, comparatively rich white people think everyone agrees with them. That's dangerous and tragic. So when I say "no sane person would vote for Trump" what I mean by sane is... Reasonable human being, I guess. And I'm sorry if that seems rude, but I think being a reasonable human being is being somone who values human lives, regardless of gender, sexuality, race or whatever.
To me there's something hilarious about the idea of Trump's anti terrorism policy. I associate terrorism with extreme religious belief - the very thing Trump stands for in my eyes. He is a ****ing terrorist.
I think a lot of people voted for Trump because they just hated Hillary or don't realise the magnitude of what voting for Trump actually says about you. It's not until you know someone personally who suffers because of the kind of **** Trump advocates that you realise this.
Related, brilliant video...
Again, apologies, just... Trying to be honest and blatant in hope it helps people see why so many are so scared.
Sythe
Mega Poster
Let me clarify what I meant by that: I don't think that we should ban all Muslims, that is one of the things that I don't agree with. But I do think that we could temporarily halt immigration from Islamic extremist countries (ones that kill gays, oppress women, and support ISIS.) And I think that Trump will eventually have to tone the policy to just that. Countries like that have some very dangerous people that could easily be terrorists which is very troubling. Along with Muslim refugees causing violence in some areas along with costing the country money. And about the wall, yes, some of it will be fence, but I still support it either way. Some areas of the border have these tiny little fences that anyone can hop over, and that needs to be fixed.
Honestly I would much rather vote for someone like Ben Carson or Marco Rubio. However I think Trump has changed since the election. From what I heard ever since he found out he was going to win he started to become a lot more serious. I feel as though he thought that the only way he could win this thing was to stir up a lot of controversy. And that obviously worked out very well for him. I think a lot of his votes were from people that feel like the country has been cheated and laughed at, people (like me) who believe that Reagan was the last great president that we had. I just feel like this is a great opportunity to change and progress. And yeah, that's pretty much all I have to say at the moment...
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Sythe
Mega Poster
Are you talking to me? If you are, then there really is more to say to that. If you disagree with me I would love to hear your perspective. If you are open to a civil discussion I would love to have one. Who knows, maybe you will provide a point good enough to change my opinion.
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I think this attitude is partly why people voted Trump. I wrote previously in this topic that people sticking fingers in their ears and bluntly dismissing others concerns (usually using terms like bigotry and racism) is why people vote in certain ways. Society will never be cohesive unless things can be discussed intelligently and openly. This, of course, works both ways. But nobody will ever be able to make a convincing argument unless the opposing argument is respected in the first place, regardless how absurd it might seem.
SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
People are tired of trying to explain though. People are tired of fighting.
There's only so many times someone can explain why "concerns" over immigration, terrorism and... The sanctity of marriage, for example, aren't legitimate concerns, but ones rooted in misinformation, media hysteria, racism, bigotry and religious indoctrination.
People, because they are human, get fed up of fighting, they get angry and lash out and then the rest of the world turns round and goes "WOW OK CALM DOWN" and "YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND MY CONCERNS" when really, the opposite is true and that's why we ended up here to begin with.
That is literally is whats happening. People are fighting for equal rights, fighting for society to respect them, and the privileged turn round and go "wahhh reverse racism" and "wahh we have genuine concerns too!"
Discussions on an internet forum are not going to change anyone's mind, but part of having the open discussion you want is demonstrating that exasperation. People won't understand each others perspective until they've lived it first hand, or through a close friend or relative or a media personality they respect. (Which is why I posted that video above - that's exactly what that is.)
If you go back in the topic, you can read Snoo's perspective, though?
This is the problem, no one really cares about anyone eases' perspective and this "have an intelligent and open discussion" thing is just a defense facade for "my opinion matters".
Relevant...
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mouse
Giga Poster
Halting immigration from certain places would be great if there was such a thing as an Islamic extremist country. Sure, there are countries in which groups of extremists are based in such as Syria, but this doesn't mean that the entire population of Syria wants to blow us up. The majority of people in these countries are just as much victims to extremism as we are, if not more so. Turning them away and trying to stop them fleeing extremists doesn't sit well with me. Millions of people have been displaced by extremism, to label them as from an Islamic country and therefore an extremist is just wrong and spreads further hatred and chaos - which is what the extremists want. If my research is correct, since 9/11, the US has resettled almost 800,000 refugees (the large majority of immigration from Islamic countries being refugees). Just 3 of those have been found to have links to terrorism (http://www.migrationpolicy.org/news/us-record-shows-refugees-are-not-threat). There just isn't proof that halted immigration reduces terrorist attacks. Many extremists based in America are even trying to flee the country in order to join terrorist organisations abroad.
Obviously terrorism and extremism is a massive problem, but if Trump wants to improve safety in his country then he should begin by focusing on gun control - guns are currently causing way more deaths than terrorism in America, and will continue to do so if his proposed gun policies take action.
I think this is the reason Trump was voted in. It is clear that people want change, in whatever form that takes. Hillary just didn't represent that whatsoever, as I said the left put forward a terrible candidate. Some people think Trump will be progressive, others think he'll be regressive, and others think he will be a downright disaster. Whichever of these, he will certainly cause some changes.
Sythe
Mega Poster
People are tired of trying to explain though. People are tired of fighting.
There's only so many times someone can explain why "concerns" over immigration, terrorism and... The sanctity of marriage, for example, aren't legitimate concerns, but ones rooted in misinformation, media hysteria, racism, bigotry and religious indoctrination.
People, because they are human, get fed up of fighting, they get angry and lash out and then the rest of the world turns round and goes "WOW OK CALM DOWN" and "YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND MY CONCERNS" when really, the opposite is true and that's why we ended up here to begin with.
That is literally is whats happening. People are fighting for equal rights, fighting for society to respect them, and the privileged turn round and go "wahhh reverse racism" and "wahh we have genuine concerns too!"
Discussions on an internet forum are not going to change anyone's mind, but part of having the open discussion you want is demonstrating that exasperation. People won't understand each others perspective until they've lived it first hand, or through a close friend or relative or a media personality they respect. (Which is why I posted that video above - that's exactly what that is.)
If you go back in the topic, you can read Snoo's perspective, though?
This is the problem, no one really cares about anyone eases' perspective and this "have an intelligent and open discussion" thing is just a defense facade for "my opinion matters".
Relevant...
Well I'm not sure I agree with that exactly. I don't see how you can say Illegal immigration and Terrorism is not a concern, I actually find it very much of a concern. And doing something like wanting to prevent illegal immigration is simply not racist, as there really are very many criminals from cities with very high crime rates that cross the border. (Of course i do have to say that I would rather Trump just deport the criminals and then work on helping the good illegals become registered.)
About what you said about white people claiming there is reverse racism, well, I don't believe reverse racism is a thing at all, because it gives the impression that only white can be racist, which is not true at all. I don't mean to be offensive or anything but I think that it's really ignorant to say that other races can't be racist towards white people. There are people who have been beaten up just for being white. There are also white people that are very poor that are told that they are privileged or they don't know what it's like to be in poverty, when in reality they do and it is a very real problem. Making generalizations based on race is the basis of racism, and to say that someone has privilege just because of their race, instead of the actual problems like the cultural aspect of where they were born or how they were raised, is just plain racist. The thing about the fight for equal rights is that it's gone so far that it actually has started to make hasty generalizations and people start to oppress without even realizing it. I understand the perspective with that but I just don't agree with it, and I know many minorities, even ones that used to live in ghettos, that I've talked to and they've said that white privilege is just not true and people have gone to the point of oppression. An example of this being Trump... He's never said anything racist, but he's being labeled as one by those who are extremely ignorant of what he has actually said and what he stands for. And then people are talking it so far that they are actually beating up people for voting for Trump. It's absolutely horrible. I'm sorry if I seem rude or something by saying this, but I have some really strong opinions on this subject.
And also, I really do care about other people's perspectives. I have heard some perspectives that really have started to change the way that I think. And I do believe that having a conversation about it could actually change my opinion on some things.
And about what you said about Snoo, sorry about that, I didn't realize he had already shown his perspective.
But yeah, so that's some of my opinions. The end or whatever... I'm not good with concluding paragraphs XD
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Snoo
The Legend
Sythe.. last night I was just exhausted and couldn't really put thoughts together besides 'no.. just no'. I apologize. Here it goes..
Here's the thing, they already do that though. Immigrating to the USA is already very tough, especially if you want to be a citizen. Banning ALL people however isn't fair to those who actually need help is it. Other countries, especially those MUCH closer to the situation, are doing this at a much higher rate with little to no effect.
And to be honest, we have MANY more domestic terrorists, as in those who were born here, raised here, and commit violence here. You look at those mass shootings over the last decade and almost all were committed by those who were already here. THOSE are the people to focus on, not those abroad. While keeping a closer eye on people coming here is something many Americans can all agree on, banning them all because of a few random acts, many of which occur within other countries, is a bit contradictory considering the issues that continue on our soil already.
So you would rather waste hundred of millions or BILLIONS of dollars, that WE.. not Mexico.. would have to pay for to keep out people that, statistically, are not causing large problems within our borders? The illusion of safety and 'control' is not worth billions in my opinion.
Lastly, that's the thing.. to vote for change 'just because' will not change America. That's what a lot of uneducated voters did and instead of being educated on those who are running.. they simply saw a racist, sexist, bigot screaming things that weren't like Clinton and they vaguely supported and felt he is the right fit. The loudest voice isn't always the best and now we're stuck with that voice for 4 years. If he ****s it up, it's on those who voted for him. It's on ALL of us.
At the end of the day, I stated earlier in the thread, this vote.. from a minority who has emphatically opposed his run to the Presidency.. has put a majority of minority citizens in a very rough spot that many Americans both don't understand nor care to understand. If he follows through on many of the things most people with a sense of a conscious oppose, we will be going down a very dark road. While I sense he will be more moderate than many think, this man.. THIS man.. isn't someone I would want running this website, let alone the biggest superpower in the history of our planet.
As far as racism goes.. it exists. It's rampant and systemic. Those who feel it doesn't exist either are lucky enough to not experience it in their lives or simply ignore the obvious signs in America. I have done neither as I have experienced it plenty in America. Sythe, you pointed out the fact people are beating up people for voting for Trump however you ignore the reverse side of the coin. People expressing their racism has become rampant now that 'their' candidate is elected, even if he hasn't openly endorsed racism outright. That's THEIR canaidate.
Here's the thing, they already do that though. Immigrating to the USA is already very tough, especially if you want to be a citizen. Banning ALL people however isn't fair to those who actually need help is it. Other countries, especially those MUCH closer to the situation, are doing this at a much higher rate with little to no effect.
And to be honest, we have MANY more domestic terrorists, as in those who were born here, raised here, and commit violence here. You look at those mass shootings over the last decade and almost all were committed by those who were already here. THOSE are the people to focus on, not those abroad. While keeping a closer eye on people coming here is something many Americans can all agree on, banning them all because of a few random acts, many of which occur within other countries, is a bit contradictory considering the issues that continue on our soil already.
So you would rather waste hundred of millions or BILLIONS of dollars, that WE.. not Mexico.. would have to pay for to keep out people that, statistically, are not causing large problems within our borders? The illusion of safety and 'control' is not worth billions in my opinion.
Honestly I would much rather vote for someone like Ben Carson or Marco Rubio. However I think Trump has changed since the election. From what I heard ever since he found out he was going to win he started to become a lot more serious. I feel as though he thought that the only way he could win this thing was to stir up a lot of controversy. And that obviously worked out very well for him. I think a lot of his votes were from people that feel like the country has been cheated and laughed at, people (like me) who believe that Reagan was the last great president that we had. I just feel like this is a great opportunity to change and progress. And yeah, that's pretty much all I have to say at the moment...
Lastly, that's the thing.. to vote for change 'just because' will not change America. That's what a lot of uneducated voters did and instead of being educated on those who are running.. they simply saw a racist, sexist, bigot screaming things that weren't like Clinton and they vaguely supported and felt he is the right fit. The loudest voice isn't always the best and now we're stuck with that voice for 4 years. If he ****s it up, it's on those who voted for him. It's on ALL of us.
At the end of the day, I stated earlier in the thread, this vote.. from a minority who has emphatically opposed his run to the Presidency.. has put a majority of minority citizens in a very rough spot that many Americans both don't understand nor care to understand. If he follows through on many of the things most people with a sense of a conscious oppose, we will be going down a very dark road. While I sense he will be more moderate than many think, this man.. THIS man.. isn't someone I would want running this website, let alone the biggest superpower in the history of our planet.
As far as racism goes.. it exists. It's rampant and systemic. Those who feel it doesn't exist either are lucky enough to not experience it in their lives or simply ignore the obvious signs in America. I have done neither as I have experienced it plenty in America. Sythe, you pointed out the fact people are beating up people for voting for Trump however you ignore the reverse side of the coin. People expressing their racism has become rampant now that 'their' candidate is elected, even if he hasn't openly endorsed racism outright. That's THEIR canaidate.
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Crazycoaster
Giga Poster
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-examples_us_56d47177e4b03260bf777e83
Are you suuuure?
Chimamanda Adichie <3
Sythe
Mega Poster
Okay, the only thing racist there is what he said about the judge, which isn't even that bad as racial bias is a real thing.But everything else is just: oh he said something about another race so he must be racist. And the KKK obviously supports him because he has less sympathy to people just because they are a certain race.
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SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
Oh fine, I'll collect a list of examples of Trump being a big fat racist, fine. Fine. I'll do it. I'll bite.
- The most well known example... He claimed a judge would be bias because he was Mexican. That is literally saying "this person isn't capable of doing their job because of their race". That is racism. I get that Trump's point was that the judge may discriminate against him because of the way Trump is (ya now, a known racist), but what does that fear tell you?
- "The first-person account of at least one black Trump casino employee in Atlantic City suggests the racist practices were consistent with Trump’s personal behavior toward black workers.
“When Donald and Ivana came to the casino, the bosses would order all the black people off the floor,” Kip Brown, a former employee at Trump’s Castle, told the New Yorker for a September article. “It was the eighties, I was a teen-ager, but I remember it: they put us all in the back.” http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-examples_us_56d47177e4b03260bf777e83
- “I think the guy is lazy,” Trump said of a black employee, according to O’Donnell. “And it’s probably not his fault because laziness is a trait in blacks. It really is, I believe that. It’s not anything they can control.” http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-examples_us_56d47177e4b03260bf777e83
- Or how about that time he said he couldn't condemn the KKK's support of him because ... He couldn't condemn a group he had not yet researched. The KKK. The ****ing KKK.
- The Trump campaign announced that one of its California primary delegates was William Johnson, chair of the white nationalist American Freedom Party. http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/05/donald-trump-white-nationalist-afp-delegate-california
- He was obsessed with that conspiracy theory that Obama wasn't a US citizen, because he's got a funky sounding name.
- “I’ll take jobs back from China, I’ll take jobs back from Japan,” Trump said during his visit to the U.S.-Mexican border in July. “The Hispanics are going to get those jobs, and they’re going to love Trump.”
- He dehumanizes people by referring to groups as "the hispanics", "the blacks", "the muslims".
- In 1993, when Trump wanted to open a casino in Bridgeport, Connecticut, that would compete with one owned by the Mashantucket Pequot Nation, a local Native American tribe, he told the House subcommittee on Native American Affairs that “they don’t look like Indians to me... They don’t look like Indians to Indians.”
- He condoned the beating up of a black lives matter protester. “Maybe [the protester] should have been roughed up,” he mused. “It was absolutely disgusting what he was doing.” http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-supporters-black-lives-matter_us_5650e463e4b0258edb31c94b
- Some of his fans beat up a homeless Latino man and said “Donald Trump was right — all these illegals need to be deported,”. Trump's response? “I will say that people who are following me are very passionate,” Trump said. “They love this country and they want this country to be great again. They are passionate.” Passionate. That's a great way to describe the kind of person who goes round beating up people based on their race, yeah. Passionate. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-racist-examples_us_56d47177e4b03260bf777e83
- Trump tweeted an anti-Semitic Hillary Clinton meme that featured a photo of her over a backdrop of $100 bills with a six-pointed Jewish Star of David next to her face.
The meme was created by white supremacists and could be found on a neo-Nazi forum more than a week before Trump shared it. Additionally, a watermark on the image leads to a Twitter account that regularly tweets racist, sexist political memes.
- At a campaign appearance in California in June, Trump boasted that he had a black supporter in the crowd, saying “look at my African American over here.” “Look at him,” Trump continued. “Are you the greatest?” Is he talking to his pet dog, or a human?
- “I will build a great wall – and nobody builds walls better than me, believe me – and I’ll build them very inexpensively. I will build a great, great wall on our southern border, and I will make Mexico pay for that wall. Mark my words.” Walls like the one he's talking about... Those are symbolism of segregation.
- “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re not sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people.”
Sythe
Mega Poster
The reason I didn't mention Trump supporters being racist is because that's not the point I was trying to make. I do believe that some Trump supporters are racist. The thing is that now he is actually telling them to stop it, as shown in his 60 minutes interview. If people continue to be racist in the name of Trump then they would be defying what Trump has said. So in reality it's not Trump's fault if this happens anymore.
I'm not sure I'm doing a very good job at voicing my arguments anymore honestly. I probably made a mistake voicing my opinion in a place where I'm outnumbered like 10 to 1. I don't think I can continue this discussion anymore because at this point because I'm already trying to rush my responses so that I can respond to everyone... I'm just gonna have to give up at this point because I'm already driving myself insane and I'm supposed to be getting work done. So yeah, say what you want about me but I'm gonna have to leave this argument because I'm just too outnumbered (and I'm a terrible communicator in general) So yeah... RIP me lol.
But yeah thank you guys for not attacking me lol. I will definitely look into the stuff that you and other people said and who knows maybe I'll become a Hillary Supporter or something (LOL jk not that far) But I just want to leave for now, as it has turned into more of an argument as I originally intended it to be...
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SaiyanHajime
CF Legend
Thanks Sythe - I do appreciate you voicing your opinion somewhere where the majority feel the opposite, cuz that is tough. And yeah, please don't waste valuable time when you're supposed to be working stressing on here.
But this makes me so sad...
Watch this... This is how Obama dealt with a heckler vs how Trump did. Obama challenges his followers when they do the wrong thing - he encourages RESPECT for other human beings, regardless of their point of view. Trump endorses the aggression, the prejudice, the violence. That is morally abhorrent.
But this makes me so sad...
It is his fault. He encouraged it, he endorsed it, he let it happen. Like Adichie says in that video posted by Crazycoaster, we can't pat him on the back for behaving like a fairly reasonable person, especially after all he's said and done. You pat people on the back when they do great things, not when they behave as is expected of a reasonable person.
Watch this... This is how Obama dealt with a heckler vs how Trump did. Obama challenges his followers when they do the wrong thing - he encourages RESPECT for other human beings, regardless of their point of view. Trump endorses the aggression, the prejudice, the violence. That is morally abhorrent.
Sythe
Mega Poster
Yeah I kinda realized that I was kinda wrong in a way there. Kinda just an example of me rushing my arguments XD and another reason I don't want to be in this argument anymore is because I'm actually starting to defend Trump so much that I'm going to the point where I'm agreeing with everything that he says, which I don't. If I continue doing this I'm just going to forget that 99% of the reason I voted for Trump was because I did not want to vote for Hillary. But yeah, trust me I don't like Trump even though it seems like I do. I'm just kind of annoyed that I've never actually had a president that I liked in my lifetime and I think I'm trying to make Trump that president, even though it's not going to happen. Anyways I have to get back to work lol.
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