Angle of Airtime: Does it Matter?

[Jarrett]

So I saw a thread regarding a somewhat similar topic and this has been something I've discussed before, so I thought I'd go ahead and take the convo here.

Last November, when we got off Lightning Rod, my group had very strong mixed opinions on this element right here:

All renderings in this thread are Dollywood's.

Ben and I were both blown away with the amount of force exerted upwards coming out of this wave turn. However, Emily said it "has no airtime." Now I straight up called her a stupid :zippermouth: because mechanically, it's impossible for a force lifting you up out of your seat relative to the train to not exist. If it didn't, the track would go back out and you'd continue on a forward trajectory out of the train, the restraint is there to exert said force to keep you in the train.

This element was another point of controversy. Ben and I both regarded it as the best drop we'd ever experienced, Emily once again said no airtime. I felt like I was about to be chucked out and land somewhere in Great Smokey Mountains National Park! She just said, "I never get any airtime on drops."

This bad boy right here, however, was unanimous. All of us thought the airtime here was balls to the wall insane.

After talking with Emily, we came to the conclusion that to her, ejector didn't mean the same to her that it meant to us. To me, when I think of "airtime" in the context of what I like, it's any force that tries to rip you up and out of your seat. To her, it's a force that acts against and crushes that vertical gravity vector head on. No banking on the hill, just a straight shot over an unbanked hill that throws you over your seat. Tilted on your side or tipped down a drop just isn't the same to her. However, I rather enjoy being thrown down a drop so powerful the restraint has to keep me in or flung around an outward banked turn as the train tries to toss me.

So for you, is airtime...
A. Something that tosses you up out of your seat regardless of the angle.
B. A force that acts directly against force of gravity regardless of the angle.
C. A force that acts directly against the force of gravity when the rider is oriented up relative to said force.
D. Other (please explain!)

Interested to see the responses on this one!

 

[Mrsupersonic8]

A. Short answer: because airtime is airtime, even if you're sideways.

Long answer: airtime is when the negative vertical G's are present, whether it's just enough to counteract the force of gravity (drop/floater) or to put you against your restraint (ejector). The angle doesn't matter, only the forces.

 

[Lofty]

'I full on called her a stupid bitch', that's ****ing gross, you know that, right?

But, airtime to me is a force in which you gain 'air', as in lift from the seat in an upwards trajectory (from the rider's point of view, not directionally speaking). So, that's why I say that Zero G Stalls have 'airtime', yet the actual direction of force is just gravitational and downwards (directionally speaking). So, the wave turn to me would be lateral forces, and therefore not airtime as the direction in which I feel the force is on my right-hand side, not upwards.

 

[Hixee]

But, airtime to me is a force in which you gain 'air', as in lift from the seat in an upwards trajectory (from the rider's point of view, not directionally speaking). So, that's why I say that Zero G Stalls have 'airtime', yet the actual direction of force is just gravitational and downwards (directionally speaking). So, the wave turn to me would be lateral forces, and therefore not airtime as the direction in which I feel the force is on my right-hand side, not upwards.

Totally agree on this. Some people would say that the upside-down airtime is "hangtime", but that doesn't quite feel like the same thing to me (that's possibly a discussion for another topic). That said, you underestimate the forces on the wave turns (or at least, the ones I've done on Outlaw Run and Lightning Rod). They very definitely have airtime - it's just shoving you out of the seat at a 90° angle. They're excellent pieces of track design, as you're floating in the direction that the train is travelling in, but feeling ejector out of your seat.

 

[Lofty]

The only one I could compare it to was Wildfire's, which just isn't very good.

 

[Hixee]

The only one I could compare it to was Wildfire's, which just isn't very good.

Is Wildfire's the one that following the inverted airtime hill?

 

[Lofty]

Is Wildfire's the one that following the inverted airtime hill?

Lol, yeah, it just doesn't really do much, apart from the fab snap into it and out of it.

 

[Hixee]

Lol, yeah, it just doesn't really do much, apart from the fab snap into it and out of it.

Yeah, see I reckon that's it's downfall. The one on Lightning Rod is just outrageous. You enter it thinking it'll be like and overbank, but then you're just being ejected while the ground is so far below you (in part thanks to the valley, but it's also just ****ing massive). You don't have the twists at the entrance and exit to detract from the forces.

Thinking about it makes my willy tingle.

 

[ThomVD]

I remember getting quite a lot of airtime on Wildfire's overbank hill thing, it was great. Especially with the view of the water <3

 

[DelPiero]

Yeah I got airtime on Wildfire's too, different to LR's, but it was still there. The snap Lofty describes is pretty obscene, might be that's just more obvious than the floater airtime, but there is floater on it.
LR's is ejector, all of LR is ejector, sweet, sexy, sensual ejector.

 

[Jarrett]

'I full on called her a stupid bitch', that's :emoji_zipper_mouth:ing gross, you know that, right?

We're awful to each other to be funny, all three of us are really good friends that have traveled together multiple times so we know each other well enough to engage in the kind of humor. It probably doesn't translate well to typing (reading it over again I see that it really didn't) but her and Ben are just as horrible back to me, they do it to each other (I'm sure you'd be appalled by Ben's nickname Emily gave him ) and it's all in good jest.

I'm far too basic to have done Wildfire but I have done Goliath which I think has just about the same stall element and I personally consider that floater. I don't get any force lifting me away from the bottom of my seat but there's no more exerted by my restraint, so it's more of a neutral float. I personally agree with @Hixee on Lightning Rod's wave turn, even though you're sideways and expecting maybe a bit of floater at best it does create force directed against your restraint and it does feel exactly the same way a normal ejector hill would feel, just visually oriented completely differently, another reason I love the element.

 

[DelPiero]

I'm far too basic to have done Wildfire but I have done Goliath which I think has just about the same stall element and I personally consider that floater. I don't get any force lifting me away from the bottom of my seat but there's no more exerted by my restraint, so it's more of a neutral float.

They are technically the same element but they don't feel the same.
Goliath's is as you described, floater into a bit of hang(you feel yourself touching the restraint upside down) but lightly, not full on hang restraint holding you in type thing.
Wildfire's provides slight ejector at first, as in there's force pushing you into the seat, then it fully floats until it's righted you to the normal position, even through the transition you float, and you don't feel the restraint at all.

This is why it's the best inversion in the world. Goliath's is good, but Wildfire's is better.

 

[balrog]

Hey ! For anyone interested, and in the hope of maybe adding to the present debate and clarify some technical aspects, here is some insight about the physics behind airtime. I know that all of you have a good idea of what an airtime is and feels like, but you might not all be familiar with the physical explanation of the phenomenon, in which case I believe the following discussion might help you understand/make up you mind about the question at hand.

Airtime is not a force.

Actually, gravity itself is not really a force. Gravity is a geometrical effect that accelerates every object downward (or in general, toward massive objects), at a rate that is independent of the physical characteristics of the object. Every object gets accelerated just as much, with no regard with their size and mass, or whether they're made of wood or lead.
That is why gravity is measured in meter per second per second : m/s² , the unit of acceleration. And at ground level, it is approximately equal to 9.8 m/s², or 1g. (1g=9.8 m/s²)

Yes, we often define a force associated with gravity, called the weight, but weight is an effective force, not a real force. Similarly to the centrifugal force which is an effective (virtual) force that applies to objects when viewed from a rotating reference frame, which actually accounts for the centrifugal acceleration that is just an effect of the rotating reference frame : No actual force is applied on the object.

Now, usually, we are not accelerating downward at 9.8 m/s² (aka falling) because our fall is prevented by the presence of the floor (or seat, bed ... ) beneath us. In this condition (not falling), we are able to feel our weight. What we actually feel is not really our weight (which, I repeat, isn't a physical force), but the reaction of the floor that counteracts the acceleration of gravity by applying a reaction force F=-mg (m being our mass) on the bottom of our feet. We can also feel the reaction of all our lower bodyparts preventing the fall of all the bodypart above them. The feet having to prevent the fall of the most mass, this is why we feel our weight more strongly in our feet.

Let's now talk about weightlessness.
When we are falling, we are being accelerated freely by gravity. In this case, nothing creates a reaction against gravity, this is why we cannot feels such reaction : we cannot feel our weight, this is why we feel weightless.
Such condition (falling) can happen in two cases, either there is no floor/seat beneath us, like when we jump of a diving board, Or we are standing/seated/lying but the floor/seat itself is also falling, like like on a parabolic flight aircraft, a spacecraft in orbit or a coaster train on an airtime hill.

That is airtime. When the train follow the well calculated, parabolic shaped curve of the track of an airtime hill, it accelerates downward at 9.8m/s², or 1g, just as it would if it was falling and the track was not there. You, passenger of the train, are falling as well, at the same rate (as this rate does not depend on the falling object) and the train does not apply any reaction force on your body to keep you from falling, and your individual body-parts do not apply any reaction on the body-parts on top of them. You are subject to no force, you are effectively weightless.


Ejector happens when the profile of the track is such that the train accelerates downward at a rate greater than 1g : it is then accelerating downward faster than you are falling and pulls you down : the lap bar applies a force on your thighs (or any part of the train that restrains you on any part of your body it touches) that pulls you down and prevents you from exiting the train.

Hangtime is when you are upside down but the train do not accelerate downward at a rate of 1g or more : what is preventing you from falling is also the reaction of the lap bar on your lap, so in term of physical effect on the body, it is identical to ejector. I suggest that any time the sides of the train/restrains applies a force on you to prevent you from exiting the train be called lateral, independently of you orientation (upward, upside down, sideways ...) as the effect on the body is the same anyway.

 

[Edward M]

This whole topic is turning into an RMC fan page, specifically Lightning Rod. Obviously I have no problem with this

As for me, I would say airtime is countering gravity. Pushing you against the natural forces that gravity is constantly pushing on you. It’s an amazing sensation. As for the non-traditional airtime in stalls etc, the only stall I’ve done was on Twisted Colossus, but it didn’t feel like airtime, just hangtime. However, Lightning Rod’s obscene wave turn is one of my favorite airtime moments cause I just simply wasn’t expecting such amazing airtime from a wave turn. The floater is some of the best in the world. Same with Outlaw to a lesser extent. On average though, airtime remains a mostly hill based thing on a coaster. Trying to eject you out of a coaster. Ahhhh, now I’m just thinking about Lightning Rod <3

 

[DelPiero]

Now I hope you have a clearer view of what airtime and ejector means.

Derp?

 

[balrog]

Derp?

What ?

 

[Lofty]

He's inferring you're being a condescending ****ing tit.

 

[balrog]

I know that. My post is targeted at people who don't already know what I wrote. If you are to dumb to understand that, you are really not entitled to an opinion. If you already know what I was writing about, did you really read the whole post and thought you were the target audience ? If you didn't already know about what I wrote, and you read the post up until this sentence, then yeah, I hope you might have actually learned how airtime works.

Whichever category you fall in, you shouldn't feel insulted.

 

[DelPiero]

Meh, once again you are just making yourself look very silly. It was a very condescending post which was actually a really good discussion until you waded in.
99% of the people on here know exactly what airtime is, and have experienced it probably in more ways than the amount of creds you've actually ridden.
So please get off your high horse and try to add content without being a smarmy twat.

Best Regards,
Another smarmy twat

 

[balrog]

I'm just replying to a thread. Thread which is attached to a poll which contains the sentence :

A force that acts against the natural force of gravity, oriented normally relative to that force

So, yeah, some people might benefit from some clarification about what is actually going on physically. If it looks condescending, yeah, well, I'm sorry. Wasn't my intention, and you all know that. I could argue that it is because I'm not a native English speaker or else, but you know it's just BS. Yes, I do believe you can experience something 1000 times with every possible variations and still benefit from some good old hard science. And I perfectly know I'm not a world leading expert on coasters but just a novice rider. I do still believe my contribution can be useful even if my coaster experience is 10 times lower than yours.